Ideal difficulty for skill-enhancing "projects"

Do everything Lena said. I also think running 3-5 projects at varying levels (one 12c, 2bs and an a) can be useful.

Gunkiemike wrote:

Tangential question - to what extent is progress on a sustained project pitch the result of developing the requisite power-endurance? And is working on such a project* an effective way to train P-E? (I know, as in all things training-related there is likely a better, more specific regimen for P-E. But is the project itself doing anything?) 

* I'm talking about a project where one can do each move and short sequences, but just can't quite get it all due to running out of gas up high.

My current project fits that description pretty well - I can do the moves but can't really imagine linking them right now. Steep climb above my grade.

My plan, for what it's worth, isn't to just keep trying it (partly because I'm out east and its winter). I'll be training for the winter, core, lock-off & biceps mostly as this is what this climb demands the most. Then I'll try my luck in the spring/summer and see how far I'll go.

My thinking at this point is this - my obstacles to link this can probably be bundled up into "power endurance", however when you look at things closer it's more complicated than that. For example, if you lack the lock-off strenght to perform a sequence properly, you may very well be overcompensating with other muscles groups to pull it off, like over crimping, or need to perform intermediate moves than may allow you to pull the lock-off sequence, but cost more energy overall. In that case - are you really better off just doing reps of 12s on your campus board, or wouldn't it be better to work on the lock off so you can be more solid in that sequence? Similarly for say pinches - if you're not that good at pinches and need to pull a couple moves on those at near 100% grip strenght, yes you may run out of gas higher up, but the real issue may not so much be lack of PE per se but lack of technic/strenght on pinches. Therefore perhaps that strenght training geared towards pinches would make more sense. My point with those examples being that it's very taxing to be performing moves at near your maximal strenght (whatever muscle groups involved), bringing that from say 95% max effort to 85% with targetted training will go a long, long way in making your PE overall look better (without it having really improved - you just allowed your max strenght to increase and therefore allocated better whatever PE you have available overall).

If the examples above only come up in specific section of a route, I don't think you're likely to develop as much as you would need for those very specific muscle groups. To develop strenght you typically do short number of max reps (many plans seem to aim for 3 max reps), but it's hard to envision things fitting that well while actually climbing.

I've generally thought that climbing is (most) of the training you really need. That may be true on the whole, e.g. if you do many different routes in many different styles, but I don't think it holds true if you just repeat the same route.... my 2 cents...

Lena chita wrote:

I think working on the project itself IS helping you to develop the PE necessary for sending that project.

But this statement comes with a caveat. I think that ONLY getting on the project that you are working on, and not doing other things, will get you weaker overall. My reasoning is, if the project is hard for you, all you have on that project is maybe 3-4 attempts in a day, and you are done. And that's not enough to cause efficient muscle adaptation, if all you do is 3-4 attempts on a route every other day. It will eventually get you to a send, but it may not be the fastest way to send, and may not get you stronger overall.

If you are alternating these project days with days of climbing high volume at onsight grade, or doing 4x4s, bouldering pyramids, and so on, getting on your project once or twice a week for 3-4 attempts is going to help you fine-tune both the PE and the movement that you need to send, but not limit you to ONLY the movement and PE you need for this specific route..

I agree with you that working exclusively on a single project will actually get you weaker overall (many high-end climbers talked about this when they're working on a mega project that takes multiple seasons to send), but I think we arrive at very different conclusions from that single point. If someone is actually making 3-4 solid redpoint attempts (between 1-3 hangs, and not just dogging bolt-to-bolt) a day on a project, and they're doing this every other day pushing to redpoint, then to me that is what a typical power-endurance workout look like. (Broken circuit, Lattice's 20-min power-endurance workout, etc). You'll loose strength and power if that's all you do so it won't get you strong overall, but it's definitely enough training from a power-endurance perspective.

However, most of us weekend warriors can only get on our project one quality day a week (if you climb Sat and Sun, you don't have the same quality tries on Sun if you've already tried hard on Sat). This is when working exclusively on a project is not enough for PE training, you're just not spending enough time climbing. So you'll need some supplemental PE training during the week in order to improve PE.

And again, this is all based on solid redpoint attempts, between 1-3 hangs. If someone is still going bolt-to-bolt or just working short sequences on the project, hang until fully recovered, then try again, that's not training PE. Ideally, you also shouldn't be fine-tuning your movement when you're going for the redpoint, that should've been done before you start making all-out efforts to redpoint. You mentioned that Mark Anderson does a lot of hanging when he's working a route, that's because he is fine-tuning his beta going bolt-to-bolt or doing short sequences, which is more efficient than doing it when pumped and tired. When he goes for the redpoint, he already has all the beta wired so he can focus all his energy on trying hard.

aikibujin wrote:

 You'll loose strength and power if that's all you do so it won't get you strong overall, but it's definitely enough training from a power-endurance perspective.

However, most of us weekend warriors can only get on our project one quality day a week (if you climb Sat and Sun, you don't have the same quality tries on Sun if you've already tried hard on Sat). This is when working exclusively on a project is not enough for PE training, you're just not spending enough time climbing. So you'll need some supplemental PE training during the week in order to improve PE.

While being a weekend warrior my project was only a 30min drive from work. I was getting 1-2 solid goes per week (usually 2 tie in on a weeknight, around 6 burns either through crux or on 6 moves to chains with a solid pump). When I did red point I had almost no pump when I clipped the chains and did not shake much above the crux for the finish. I am still not sure how much of the was physiological adaption (PE training) and what was simply efficiency of beta. 

On the note of people having multiple projects, some second and third tier of your pyramid work, DO IT. I did no bouldering during my projecting from late May to July 4th. I had no second or third tier projects, most of the off days were longer trad at or below the onsight grade. It shouldn't come as a surprise, but I got WEAK. When I tried to get on a new sport project in early August I couldn't even make the moves in isolation. It took three weeks of regular work climbing in the gym before I felt like I was back at the level I had been in May. 

Franck Vee wrote:

Interesting comments about Mark Anderson - I really don't feel like I'm at that level, I mean regardless of grades I think you have to feel like you are an incredibly dedicated and experienced climber to start a project where you can't even link a full sequence yet.

That's not really what I got from Lena's comment. It may be that he could link the moves, but perhaps was more concerned with getting each of the moves as efficient as possible, which would involve trying a lot of variations of the moves and falling off the ones that didn't work. Of course this is pure speculation coming from me who sees 5.14 and doesn't see it as a route, but thinking he can't link any of the sequences seems like speculation too, unless we hear from Mark Anderson how he thinks about his process.

Lena chita wrote:

Personal preference obviously... I really like the redpoint pyramid approach, both in terms of how to progress your climbing grade, but also in terms of ratio of easy/hard routes I'm choosing  to get on.

By pyramid I mean the following: Say, your goal is to redpoint a 12d. And you have, so far, only climbed two 12b's and three 12a's, but that was recently, within the past 6-8 months. Yes, you can probably find a 12d that suits your style, get on it, and after gazillion attempts send it. But a better approach is to pick a set of routes:

1 12d-- your goal
2-12c's
4-12b's -- you already have 2, so two new ones
8-12a's -- you already have 3, so 5 new ones.

And then get on them. You don't have to do it in order-- you don't have to send your 5 new 12a's before you attempt the 12b's and 12c's. Get on half a dozen 12c's or d's and find the two that you like, but spend time on those easier climbs, and send them, too. The pyramid sort of gives you a ratio of easier climbs vs harder climbs to try.

And I think it is important when getting on the easier climbs at the bottom of your pyramid to choose routes that aren't necessarily "your style". IMO nothing improves your skills better than that. The climbs much easier than the base of your pyramid-- sure, climb them, and enjoy it. but if you have been climbing for a while, the routes much below your onsight ability might be too easy for you, and wouldn't do much to help you progress (the caveat, of course, is IF YOU'VE BEEN CLIMBING FOR A WHILE and don't have other issues that impede your ability to progress. There is a lot of value in climbing easier routes, beyond just simple enjoyment, if you are not solid on leading/clipping, if you are recovering from injury, or if there are any mental issues you are trying to get over)

Lena, where does your on-sight level fall in this pyramid?

I agree with David. Franck, the other thing is that the process Mark used and Lena described is scalar. It works across the board from 5.11 to 5.15. It's not some voodoo that only badasses get access to

Can you tag users on this forum? u/Monomaniac @Monomaniac [appears not to work]

David Kerkeslager wrote:

Lena, where does your on-sight level fall in this pyramid?

Most people in the intermediate grades it tends to be about 1 number between the top of the pyramid and onsight/flash grade. 

It's highly dependent on how easy the rock type is to read, whether your projects suit your strength/natural style, and how much mileage you get on rock. 

Take climbing sandstone, if I go to Red Rocks I'll be able to onsight/flash at a much higher level than I can at my local hard sport crag (World Wall/Little Si). The later is much harder to read, sequences can be cryptic and holds impossible to see from below, but at Red Rocks the chalked up holds on dark rock make much of it as easy to read as a gym route. 

Jon Frisby wrote:

Can you tag users on this forum? u/Monomaniac @Monomaniac [appears not to work]

This is a web 1.0 style forum, and user tagging is a web 2.0 style of feature.

Web 1.0 tends toward the pull model: users pull the data they want from the server after it becomes available. Web 2.0 tends toward the push model: servers push the data to you when they want. Note how the latter puts the power of timing in the hands of the server. I prefer the web 1.0 model for this reason.

Tagging is a push model idea because once a user tags another user, the user is notified of the tagging, even if they don't request info about having been tagged.

Besides the social consequences of push vs. pull models, I think it would be technically difficult to implement tagging in a web 1.0 style forum.

Nick Drake wrote:

Most people in the intermediate grades it tends to be about 1 number between the top of the pyramid and onsight/flash grade. 

So basically, it's usually one grade below the pyramid entirely? i.e. your onsight grade is about 5.10b if your pyramid looks like 1x5.11b, 2x5.11a, 4x5.10d, and 8x5.10c?

It's highly dependent on how easy the rock type is to read, whether your projects suit your strength/natural style, and how much mileage you get on rock. 

Take climbing sandstone, if I go to Red Rocks I'll be able to onsight/flash at a much higher level than I can at my local hard sport crag (World Wall/Little Si). The later is much harder to read, sequences can be cryptic and holds impossible to see from below, but at Red Rocks the chalked up holds on dark rock make much of it as easy to read as a gym route. 

Yeah, I guess risk probably plays into this too--I'm willing to attempt onsights on overhung sport routes, but with Gunks ledge-y routes, I'm unwilling to hop on a lead where falling is a likelihood.

What is the longest period of time you are allowing yourself to call something your project without truly giving up? That is a huge factor in an "ideal difficulty for a project". A season? Multiple seasons? Do you need a project to maintain desire to improve? Is it still your project if you have stopped trying it regularly?

Lena has a pretty darn good outline of basic on the wall exercises and strategies to improve by doing climbing. Climbing itself is super complex and makes adaptation to certain things particularly difficult. Breaking down weaknesses (or for a certain project, the specific reason for repeated failure) can make adaptation rates increase. Strength training can pay off in pure power and power endurance/endurance by decreasing the overall effort it takes to hang on to the wall. Duh, right? If it only takes 30% of max effort to climb to spot where it previously took 35-40% you are going to feel stronger and be able to recover more easily. 

Obvious hits would be the hangboard and pull ups. I really think the biceps are neglected by a lot of climbers either because of the muscle head/gym rat look but they are the primary muscle involved in bending the elbow. You arent going to go anywhere in overhanging terrain without bending your elbows. 

Often neglected (until recently in the climbing training world) was heavy lower body lifts. Squats and deadlifts promote not only strong legs, but also lower back, core (yes heavy squats make your mid section sore), and more importantly your BUTT! Hang on a pull up bar with your heels in front of you on a scale on the ground. To put max output on the scale you pull your hips up to form a line or even bend your back like you are rinsing your hair off in the shower. LOWER BACK AND BUTT right there. You certainly arent putting more force on your feet in a roof by doing an L-sit though they might "be on".

There are a few extremely friendly and knowledgeable coaches that provide online coaching via training plans and email/skype chat. Worth it, and I wouldnt have said that before meeting and working with a local coach in person. 

David Kerkeslager wrote:

So basically, it's usually one grade below the pyramid entirely? i.e. your onsight grade is about 5.10b if your pyramid looks like 1x5.11b, 2x5.11a, 4x5.10d, and 8x5.10c?

Yeah, I guess risk probably plays into this too--I'm willing to attempt onsights on overhung sport routes, but with Gunks ledge-y routes, I'm unwilling to hop on a lead where falling is a likelihood.

You'll probably get an occasional onsight of that 4th tier, but it's not consistent. A flash at that grade is pretty reasonable to assume consistently. 

Franck Vee wrote:

My current project fits that description pretty well 

I’m kind of in a similar boat, I just started my first mega project (I define this as a route that may take me multiple seasons to send) so maybe we can keep each other psyched! I think the fact that you can do the individual moves is a sign that this route is within the realm of possibility for you. It’s good to have a mega project that may feel impossible in the beginning, it really gives you something to be psyched about. It may also expose weaknesses that you can focus your training on, like your example of pinch or lockoff strength.

My point with those examples being that it's very taxing to be performing moves at near your maximal strenght (whatever muscle groups involved), bringing that from say 95% max effort to 85% with targetted training will go a long, long way in making your PE overall look better (without it having really improved - you just allowed your max strenght to increase and therefore allocated better whatever PE you have available overall).

If the examples above only come up in specific section of a route, I don't think you're likely to develop as much as you would need for those very specific muscle groups. To develop strenght you typically do short number of max reps (many plans seem to aim for 3 max reps), but it's hard to envision things fitting that well while actually climbing.

I agree with your point, but don’t underestimate the improvement you get from neurological adaptation as well, not just from pure strength gains. I’m sometimes surprised that a move that felt impossible on the first try will feel trivial once I get the movement wired. Even a simple exercise like hangboarding, someone who has never done a HB workout in their lives may see a huge improvement in the beginning due to neurological adaptations (the ability to recruit your muscles better for a particular exercise). So as you practice a sequence and get it more wired, you may be able to bring it from 95% max effort to 85% or even lower without the need to increase your max strength (and that’s why if you work exclusively on a single project you may become weaker overall).

To this point, if you know your weaknesses on your project (like lockoffs and pinches), you can use supplemental exercises to improve those, but I’d would also suggest creating moves or problems (on a black board or system board) that simulate moves on your projects so you can work on improving these specific movement. Otherwise, just get super strong at lockoffs or pinches may not translate as well as you think on your project comes spring if you haven’t gotten on it over winter. Pure strength gains also come slower compare to efficiency gains, so I tend to see strength training is for the hard routes I’ll be working on a few years down the road, and movement practice is for the project I’m working on now.

David Kerkeslager wrote:

Lena, where does your on-sight level fall in this pyramid?

The bottom of the redpoint pyramid should be ~ the grade you onsight at least some of the time, according to what I have read.

If you are asking me personally, I have flashed one 12b, and maybe half a dozen 12a's. I've sent 8-9 12b's, and I have redpointed couple 12c's. But I don't have 12d redpoint yet. That was the plan for this fall... and then I sprained my wrist on October 1st, and killed my fall season... so much for a training plan.

edited to add: sorry, I equated onsight and flash, which aren't the same, for some reason I was respondingt to a question as if you were asking about a flash. OS would be a letter grade below the bottom of the pyramid for me

aikibujin wrote:

I agree with you that working exclusively on a single project will actually get you weaker overall (many high-end climbers talked about this when they're working on a mega project that takes multiple seasons to send), but I think we arrive at very different conclusions from that single point. If someone is actually making 3-4 solid redpoint attempts (between 1-3 hangs, and not just dogging bolt-to-bolt) a day on a project, and they're doing this every other day pushing to redpoint, then to me that is what a typical power-endurance workout look like. (Broken circuit, Lattice's 20-min power-endurance workout, etc). You'll loose strength and power if that's all you do so it won't get you strong overall, but it's definitely enough training from a power-endurance perspective.

However, most of us weekend warriors can only get on our project one quality day a week (if you climb Sat and Sun, you don't have the same quality tries on Sun if you've already tried hard on Sat). This is when working exclusively on a project is not enough for PE training, you're just not spending enough time climbing. So you'll need some supplemental PE training during the week in order to improve PE.

And again, this is all based on solid redpoint attempts, between 1-3 hangs. If someone is still going bolt-to-bolt or just working short sequences on the project, hang until fully recovered, then try again, that's not training PE. Ideally, you also shouldn't be fine-tuning your movement when you're going for the redpoint, that should've been done before you start making all-out efforts to redpoint. You mentioned that Mark Anderson does a lot of hanging when he's working a route, that's because he is fine-tuning his beta going bolt-to-bolt or doing short sequences, which is more efficient than doing it when pumped and tired. When he goes for the redpoint, he already has all the beta wired so he can focus all his energy on trying hard.

We are actually in agreement on this.

I was thinking of a specific scenario... someone I know, who climbs full-time, who shows up at the crag to work on their project... Goes bolt-to-bolt to warm up... Goes bolt-to-bolt again to warm up more... then makes a redpoint attempt... and declares the day to be over. If the day is really good, they would make a second redpoint attempt, but that's about it. This hasn't worked out very well so far. :)

How does multipitch figure into this?

David Kerkeslager wrote:

That's not really what I got from Lena's comment. It may be that he could link the moves, but perhaps was more concerned with getting each of the moves as efficient as possible, which would involve trying a lot of variations of the moves and falling off the ones that didn't work. Of course this is pure speculation coming from me who sees 5.14 and doesn't see it as a route, but thinking he can't link any of the sequences seems like speculation too, unless we hear from Mark Anderson how he thinks about his process.

Perhaps you're right, but I think the line is thin between the two. I mean, let's you can do a sequence of 3 moves. You can probably pull on the holds for real, and not just "feel" them? You can try those body position for real, instead of somewhat unweighting the rope like she was describing. Though maybe it's more of a muscle memory thing he's doing, maybe that's how he dials moves & sequences on really hard stuff.

@ John: I agree it is *somewhat* scalar - but I think there's little value in that approach if your redpoint grade is 10a, or even 11a. I feel that at those levels, you probably have more to gain from slightly easier stuff, more onsight climbing and shorter projects. Hence why I'm trying to figure out at which point it may make sense for me to get on a longer term project, and how hard that longer-term project should feel when I first attempt it. (Also Lena initially talked more about the pyramid, while Mark may or not use the pyramid in his "feeling the love" approach to the stone).

@aikibujin: Sounds great man - I hope mine may go in a year or so (next fall). The route is known for being though to link but not that hard (Predator in Rumney). May not go though, it's the first time I commit to such a longer-terme endeavour so we'll see. And yeah, muscle memory goes a long way. I assume a longer-term project gets lots of repeat anyways, to the point where you somewhat reach diminushing returns on those (since the initial question was about improving PE solely by working a given project). If you're going to increase PE, you need a number of attempts (be it handdog or full route)... therefore probably getting closer to the point where you don't learn so much more, but mostly improve physically. I guess there's a point (on a relatively easy project) were you would win out by training muscle memory and just giving it more attemps, assuming muscle memory will get you somewhere in redpoint land. Then on the other hand you have that tipping point where, after working that thing for say 30 attemps in total over a couple weeks/months, you may have been better off cutting on some of those trips & invest the time in specific training instead. But then I don't really know - I don't think I have ever made more than 7-8 attemps on the same route before. 

Good example too about learning movement while training - I observed exactly that, I've been at it for about 6 sessions now and I would say I saw big improvements in a few exercises early on, then some more improvements the last 2 weeks or so but seems to be slowing. I can feel part of the early improvement isn't strength - for example, while working on pinches, I have managed to extract 1 extra rep or so just because I think at the begining, I had a tendance to let go before actual failure. I somewhat thought I couldn't hold one anymore (so I let go), but then through doing it I realized there was usually another rep left at that moment of pump, if doing the move slightly slower than the rest. I gained another rep or so by being able to readjust slightly my grip when it starts to slip and I think I'm just grabbing them better to start with (kind of thumbs vs opposing finger positioning). And then I may have gotten ride of a bit of over-gripping....

Franck Vee wrote:

My thinking at this point is this - my obstacles to link this can probably be bundled up into "power endurance", however when you look at things closer it's more complicated than that. 

Thinking long-term, and I think you're on to it, power endurance is fleeting. Strength and power are slow to build, but are cumulative and exhibit slower declines. Take a couple of weeks away from pumpy climbing and your PE will suck. Put in a couple of sessions of 4x4's (or the like) and you're right back up there. Try not bouldering or taxing the fingers for a few weeks -- you'll have to put in a lot more work to get your strength and power back where it needs to be.

On a similar note, that's why I've never understood the desire of sport climbers to bang out roped pitches in a gym instead of bouldering. The fact that there's a preference towards roped climbing in the first place probably equates to the body's suitability to the endurance end of the spectrum (or you'd be a boulderer), but people keep looking to get pumped. 

Franck Vee wrote:

Perhaps you're right, but I think the line is thin between the two. I mean, let's you can do a sequence of 3 moves. You can probably pull on the holds for real, and not just "feel" them? You can try those body position for real, instead of somewhat unweighting the rope like she was describing. Though maybe it's more of a muscle memory thing he's doing, maybe that's how he dials moves & sequences on really hard stuff.

@ John: I agree it is *somewhat* scalar - but I think there's little value in that approach if your redpoint grade is 10a, or even 11a. I feel that at those levels, you probably have more to gain from slightly easier stuff, more onsight climbing and shorter projects. Hence why I'm trying to figure out at which point it may make sense for me to get on a longer term project, and how hard that longer-term project should feel when I first attempt it. (Also Lena initially talked more about the pyramid, while Mark may or not use the pyramid in his "feeling the love" approach to the stone).

@aikibujin: Sounds great man - I hope mine may go in a year or so (next fall). The route is known for being though to link but not that hard (Predator in Rumney). May not go though, it's the first time I commit to such a longer-terme endeavour so we'll see. And yeah, muscle memory goes a long way. I assume a longer-term project gets lots of repeat anyways, to the point where you somewhat reach diminushing returns on those (since the initial question was about improving PE solely by working a given project). If you're going to increase PE, you need a number of attempts (be it handdog or full route)... therefore probably getting closer to the point where you don't learn so much more, but mostly improve physically. I guess there's a point (on a relatively easy project) were you would win out by training muscle memory and just giving it more attemps, assuming muscle memory will get you somewhere in redpoint land. Then on the other hand you have that tipping point where, after working that thing for say 30 attemps in total over a couple weeks/months, you may have been better off cutting on some of those trips & invest the time in specific training instead. But then I don't really know - I don't think I have ever made more than 7-8 attemps on the same route before. 

Good example too about learning movement while training - I observed exactly that, I've been at it for about 6 sessions now and I would say I saw big improvements in a few exercises early on, then some more improvements the last 2 weeks or so but seems to be slowing. I can feel part of the early improvement isn't strength - for example, while working on pinches, I have managed to extract 1 extra rep or so just because I think at the begining, I had a tendance to let go before actual failure. I somewhat thought I couldn't hold one anymore (so I let go), but then through doing it I realized there was usually another rep left at that moment of pump, if doing the move slightly slower than the rest. I gained another rep or so by being able to readjust slightly my grip when it starts to slip and I think I'm just grabbing them better to start with (kind of thumbs vs opposing finger positioning). And then I may have gotten ride of a bit of over-gripping....

It's Jon, not John. Your point is why I left 5.10 off, and you're right that this can apply to 5.11 often as well. I think part of it is that if those are your max grades, your rate of overall climbing improvement is likely to be quick enough that micro-beta-ing your 11c project doesn't make sense, as you get strong enough to do the moves imperfectly before it would get to the point of being a major project. 

Lena chita wrote:

someone I know, who climbs full-time, who shows up at the crag to work on their project... Goes bolt-to-bolt to warm up... Goes bolt-to-bolt again to warm up more... then makes a redpoint attempt... and declares the day to be over. If the day is really good, they would make a second redpoint attempt, but that's about it. This hasn't worked out very well so far. :)

Ahhh yes, the dirt bagger's training program, I've been guilty of this before I had a job and a family! Haha.