Aid Climbing Sequence Question

eli poss wrote: do you have a picture of that hook? I'm curious to see the result. it amazes me that whipping onto a hook wouldn't just cause it to pop

it did pop in the end

That's a cool pic of the hook!

It's a reminder that eye protection is a good idea while aid climbing.

Jeremy is not one of those people you hear about but he is undeniably one of the better aid climbers around. His word should carry some weight.

Mark Hudon wrote:Jeremy is not one of those people you hear about but he is undeniably one of the better aid climbers around. His word should carry some weight.

It took me awhile to get my head around this whole testing, not falling thing.

When I started climbing, only the gods took falls on free routes. This changed with time, to falling is cool, and in the end I almost got my head around it. So when I started aid climbing, I kind of ported the same mind set: falling is fine as long as you will stop falling at some point safely. And my fear of falling was a weakness, that had to be overcome by running stuff out and taking the odd ride.

After that hook fall, and sitting in the Lodge Andy K took a very different view and basically told me off. He explained that the art of aid is - not falling. That is the craft. Being good at aid is about being so good with cams and wires and stuff that you can craft a solid piece where less able people couldn't. Not that you have the balls to stand on shit that others wouldn't have stood on because they have the skill to make it not so shit.

I still haven't got the testing thing dialled. And I can still be a bit of a dick about it. I have tried Andy K's idea of taking some 2,3 and 4mm code to the climbing gym and trying to bust it. But I really could do with some practice ideas, or maybe a video of two, that gives a better idea of the number hops and the violence used by those in the know to test things from heads to wires to cams. Saying things like "try and pull the thing out of the wall", although descriptive don't give a full description of how much one is meant to jump up and down and for how long (I'm not sure the Chris Mac stuff I've seen really covers this in detail). I think part of the issue is that I have never done an aid climb with someone more experienced than me, so don't have any ground truth, except for the bruises.

So much to learn. All help gratefully received.

Mark Hudon wrote:Only in awkward or severely overhanging situations do I use daisies, otherwise, Yes, no daisies.

Mark, I assume that means that almost all the time, including hard aid, you are bounce testing via aiders, not daises? Thanks

Possibly stupid question from someone with no aid experience: if the goal of the daisy on low-angle terrain is to tether the aider and piece in case it blows, why not attach the daisy to the rope instead of the harness? That would be either with a clove or just clipped like a runner.

One more chime for aggressive testing. I've only had one piece pull after testing it--a small RP. It shifted while bounce testing, but then didn't budge. The piece didn't pull until I had climbed up my aiders to where the piece was at my waist, then it decided to blow. If it had been a hook or shaky pin, I might have blamed an outward pull as the reason, but that wasn't the case here.

I've never used two daisies. Just seemed like too much of a mess. I'll clip into the piece by my waist with the rope before testing my next piece, that way I can unclip the daisy from the aiders I'm standing on and it's available as a leash for the piece I'll be testing. I did have a partner drop his aiders while testing for lack of a daisy. Fortunately, he was above a ledge (and it wasn't windy) and he was able to retrieve them. Had that not been the case, things would have been awkward.

David Coley wrote: Mark, I assume that means that almost all the time, including hard aid, you are bounce testing via aiders, not daises? Thanks

Yes. and even in those awkward/overhung situations, I try to unclip from the daisy.

David Coley wrote: Saying things like "try and pull the thing out of the wall", although descriptive don't give a full description of how much one is meant to jump up and down and for how long (I'm not sure the Chris Mac stuff I've seen really covers this in detail). I think part of the issue is that I have never done an aid climb with someone more experienced than me, so don't have any ground truth, except for the bruises. So much to learn. All help gratefully received.

Go freaking nuts! Bounce like you are a crazy man! Bounce like you are a kid throwing a tantrum. Bounce like you are trying to break your aiders.

Jake wander wrote:as i do more and more aid, this situation keeps entering my mind, being that i use the same sequence you described. i am interested to hear how much the daisy fall hurt. either from you or you and others who have personally taken a daisy fall. i like have the daisy on more as an option to multiple fifi hook locations. maybe i just leave a ~6in long daisy hooked into my aider and not my harness. this would give me the fifi option while avoiding the shock load scenario.

When I was first learning to aid, I took what amounts to a factor 2 daisy fall while aiding at Looking Glass and welded the tricam in place. It did not hurt me in the slightest.

I took a daisy fall in Yosemite similarly that ripped out the piece below and resulted in a giant whipper.

My take away from all this is that if I have any suspicion that the piece I'm getting onto is crap, I'll unclip my lower daisy before stepping up. If I'm just cruising up a C2 crack, I don't waste time unclipping the lower daisy. Those are the only two daisy falls I ever took, though, and they both occurred early in my learning process. I've since gone the Jeremy and Mark route, bounce testing the shit out of everything suspect. No daisy falls since.

Mark Hudon wrote: Go freaking nuts! Bounce like you are a crazy man! Bounce like you are a kid throwing a tantrum. Bounce like you are trying to break your aiders.

Does this apply to sandstone as well as harder rock?

I've never done hard aid anywhere other than El Cap so no, it applies only to granite.

Mark Hudon wrote: Go freaking nuts! Bounce like you are a crazy man! Bounce like you are a kid throwing a tantrum. Bounce like you are trying to break your aiders.

Mark, and others in the know,
I use Yates speed aiders and I'm 5ft7.

If I reach up to place a high piece then step into the bottom step of the ladder connected to the new piece my waist is way above the clip in point of my last piece. If I'm really giving the next piece some bouncing and it blows, I can't see how I can stop myself from falling. If I try and keep a steadying hand on the lower piece, the hand is so low I can't see me being strong enough to hold on.

I think this worry is stopping me from giving it my all when testing.

Do people commonly extend the ladder by adding a draw to the top?

Thanks

I'm 5'7" and often don't run into this problem but I can think of a few times wanting to use the ladder to bounce but deciding not to for your reason. In almost every instance where I've placed a piece too high to bounce comfortably in the ladder attached to that new piece, I'll just stay lower and boucecthe top piece via my daisy rather than my ladder.

I downclimb the aider on the previously tested piece till the piece is at about my chest. Which ever step it is, I like to have my feet even, one on the old piece and one on the new piece. I look around and figure the geometry of the situation in case the piece being tested blows. Looking away, I bounce, straight legged, onto the new piece, getting more and more crazy till I'm happy with it.

It's pretty startling and un-nerving when the piece does pull but that's all part of the aid game!

Mark, i just want to thank you for keeping up on this thread. Great wisdom.
And i, unlike most in this thread, have blown very bounced on gear. Free climbing above aid section. I think what happened was the pieces as i climbed rotated and/or walked. Took a 50' for the team, quite a ride!

Like Jeremy, I only bounce test with my aiders. I can think of only a couple of times where the angle between pieces was too weird where I felt like I couldn't appropriately test with my aiders and used a daisy to bounce test. If the piece is too high to step into the aiders, (like Jeremy) I'll clip a free aider to the higher piece so I can comfortably step over and weight the higher piece. It's nice if the foot on the piece I'm testing is about the same level as my other foot (on the piece I'm already standing). That way, if the higher piece pulls, I'm not completely off balance and therefore less likely to fall from the piece I'm standing on.

I've taken three daisy falls over a dozen walls, I've only taken one fall where it was actually my rope that caught me. My first daisy fall was when one hook blew and another hook caught me (hooks were at same level as it was a traverse). The hook bent outwards slightly but was still useable for the rest of the route, not nearly as dramatic as David Coley's photo. The fall felt gentle.

Second fall I ripped a fixed brass nut that I didn't bounce test and fell onto a 00 c3 which held; that was a larger fall and I had a heavy full rack on, which made it more awkward but not too bad.

While soloing Zodiac I clipped a fixed 5mm piece of cord/tat tied to an angle and as I weighted it, it snapped. I took a pendulum fall into a corner and broke my little toe (this was first thing in the morning, what a way to wake up!). My toe hurt at the time, but didn't stop me from climbing. I didn't realize how much I was injured until I finished the climb and about a week later put on aggressive climbing shoes.

Considering two of my three falls were clipping into fixed tat and mank, I'd suggest being wary of fixed gear! I rarely bounce test aggressively, when I do I try to be balanced and stay low on my lower piece as others have suggested.

One thought I came up with just now is incorporating a screamer into the daisy chain-ladder system... why not? It's probably too bulky and awkward in practice, but could potentially reduce shock loads if that is really something you're concerned with. (disclaimer: I've never actually used a screamer).

Thanks everyone.

I'm not sure why I find this so difficult to do. But when I'm testing a piece that really needs to be tested I shit myself. Hooking, or looking at a ground fall on a Grit route is a piece of piss in comparison.

This video shows the situation well. About half way through the video you get a good shot of the fifi connecting him to the lower piece - it goes way down to his left knee. When he is giving it his all on the bounce test, I can't see how he would not take a daisy or fifi fall if the top piece ripped. Isn't his asking for trouble, as a daisy fall I'm guessing would be way more forceful on that lower piece that the bounce test it might have been subjected to.

David, here's the deal. If you don't bounce test a piece you never know if it's just going to explode at any moment or not. You get on that piece that you haven't bounced and it's a question mark. You get on the next piece that you haven't a bounced there's another question mark. And on and on and on. So now you're 10 pieces out and you have no idea if any of them could hold a fall or if the one you're on is going to blow at any moment. Dang man, I call that scary!

There was some guy either here at mountain project or super topo who was able to record the force he was putting on a piece when he bounced it. He was your average size guy and found that when he went totally nuts, he put about 600 pounds of force on a piece. 600 pounds would probably hold a little fall but more importantly you know it's just not gonna blow at any moment.

And also, the guys who bounce pieces aren't superheroes, I'm as scared as anyone, but I'd rather be scared at that moment rather than the whole time I'm standing on a piece wondering if it's going to blow!