Aid Climbing Sequence Question

I have a question for the aid guru's out there.

It seems like the standard set up for aid climbing these days is two lanyards, with an aid ladder on the end of each.

When you go to aid, you clip one lanyard/aider setup into a piece and step up on it to set your next piece. At this point, your rope is into the piece below so if the piece you are on blows, you are caught by the rope. If all goes well setting the next piece, you shift your weight onto the new piece, clip the rope into the previous piece you were just on and remove your aider. Repeat.

Does this sound like the right sequence?

The reason I ask, is a couple years ago I climbed the Nose and took an aid fall in the Great Roof (all was good, no injury). My fall occurred in a split second as I was shifting my weight to the next piece (after three big bounce tests). I was still daisy'd to the last piece, so when the new one popped, I shock loaded my daisy on the previous piece, which ended up holding the fall. I ended up ripping a couple of the relief stitches in the daisy chain, but as I said it all worked out.

I felt like that was an avoidable event, and there is probably a better sequence to use to not expose yourself to a potential shock loading fall. The only thing I could think of is to not have your aiders on the daisy chain itself. You then open your self up to numerous opportunities to drop them...

I am interested to hear some advice from some experienced aid climbers here!

Thanks

Two good friends, who are also very good aid climbers, use your same set up. These guys know what they are doing and know the dangers of daisy falls. The only way I can figure to avoid a daisy fall is to unclip from the lower piece immediately after moving off of it. I don't know their exact sequence.
Personally, I don't use daisies often, and, after many, many wall routes, I have never dropped an aider. I don't see the advantage of not dropping an aider being more important than the danger of taking a daisy fall.

Don't forget that a daisy fall into a piece (it really does not matter too much what your daisy is made of, dyneema, spectra, nylon) is essentially a static fall. The options are: the piece will hold and shock load the hell out of you (and maybe cause you sever damage), the daisy will break, or the piece, now being subjected to a static fall, will pull. I don't see any of those as good outcomes.

as i do more and more aid, this situation keeps entering my mind, being that i use the same sequence you described.

i am interested to hear how much the daisy fall hurt. either from you or you and others who have personally taken a daisy fall.

i like have the daisy on more as an option to multiple fifi hook locations. maybe i just leave a ~6in long daisy hooked into my aider and not my harness. this would give me the fifi option while avoiding the shock load scenario.

I usually only use daisies on overhanging terrain or places where I'm back cleaning and will drop the gear and ladder if the piece I'm standing on rips.

That said, I have started clipping the rope to the piece I'm standing on when I get to/above waist high on the current piece. At best it reduces my fall distance if I come off, at worst it rips the piece I'm on anyway.

isn't this where something like the petzl evolve would help? even if its just a short piece of rope.

Jake wander wrote:as i do more and more aid, this situation keeps entering my mind, being that i use the same sequence you described. i am interested to hear how much the daisy fall hurt. either from you or you and others who have personally taken a daisy fall. i like have the daisy on more as an option to multiple fifi hook locations. maybe i just leave a ~6in long daisy hooked into my aider and not my harness. this would give me the fifi option while avoiding the shock load scenario.

My aid fall didn't hurt very much. It was a pretty hard static fall though and a jolt. The piece was even with my waist so it was probably a 3' fall onto the daisy. Could have been a lot worse as Mark described above.

I took a daisy fall on a one of the long 140 cm BD static daisies(can't remember if it was spectra or dyneems, but def. not nylon). I pretty high up the next piece, so I probably fell a solid 6-7 feet on it.

Surprisingly, nothing really bad happened at all. Was kind of a hard stop, but nothing close to what would cause injury. Didn't even really cause any bruises. The piece that caught me didn't seem to suffer any damage or pull either, but it was a pretty bomber cam.

This might not be common, but that's my experience. I'm too afraid of dropping an aider to not use the daisies.

smurray47 wrote:I took a daisy fall on a one of the long 140 cm BD static daisies(can't remember if it was spectra or dyneems, but def. not nylon). I pretty high up the next piece, so I probably fell a solid 6-7 feet on it. Surprisingly, nothing really bad happened at all. Was kind of a hard stop, but nothing close to what would cause injury. Didn't even really cause any bruises. The piece that caught me didn't seem to suffer any damage or pull either, but it was a pretty bomber cam. This might not be common, but that's my experience. I'm too afraid of dropping an aider to not use the daisies.

im quoting you on this. now if i get injured in a daisy fall, its your fault ;)

smurray47 wrote:I took a daisy fall on a one of the long 140 cm BD static daisies(can't remember if it was spectra or dyneems, but def. not nylon). I pretty high up the next piece, so I probably fell a solid 6-7 feet on it. Surprisingly, nothing really bad happened at all. Was kind of a hard stop, but nothing close to what would cause injury. Didn't even really cause any bruises. The piece that caught me didn't seem to suffer any damage or pull either, but it was a pretty bomber cam. This might not be common, but that's my experience. I'm too afraid of dropping an aider to not use the daisies.

I've always thought that the reason you don't hear about daisy falls causing injury is due to the mechanics of a daisy fall. You're rarely directly above the daisy connection point. If you're on a fifi, you're leaning back. When a piece rips, you'll likely be stepping up on the ladder. All of these mean that you're unlikely to fall directly down with the daisy becoming shock loaded. More likely, you will start to load the daisy such that there is a swinging component to the fall. I would also imagine that things such as shifting connections in the system, tightening daisy hitch points, and harness movement all contribute to dissipate some of the forces.

BigB wrote:isn't this where something like the petzl evolve would help? even if its just a short piece of rope.

It's still a fall on a very short piece of rope.

smurray47 wrote:I took a daisy fall on a one of the long 140 cm BD static daisies(can't remember if it was spectra or dyneems, but def. not nylon). I pretty high up the next piece, so I probably fell a solid 6-7 feet on it. Surprisingly, nothing really bad happened at all. Was kind of a hard stop, but nothing close to what would cause injury. Didn't even really cause any bruises. The piece that caught me didn't seem to suffer any damage or pull either, but it was a pretty bomber cam. This might not be common, but that's my experience. I'm too afraid of dropping an aider to not use the daisies.

Go research falling on daisies or slings, watch the vids, (DMM and BD have good ones) NO ONE will recommend taking the chance.

As a back up, I take a set of Metolius Alpine Aiders in case I drop mine.

Mark, (first thanks for all your contributions to climbing systems!) do you aid pitches with just your aiders; not connected with daisies? I have found that on some easy or mixed free/aid pitches I eliminate my daisies some times....
More of a random question...

Only in awkward or severely overhanging situations do I use daisies, otherwise, Yes, no daisies.

and I'm not saying that my system is the best system. I never learned to use daisies because we didn't even have daisies BIMD (back in MY day). I just learned that way.

I do hear a lot of "daisy fall" stories, that end is all sorts of ways, good, bad and ugly.

Mark Hudon wrote: Go research falling on daisies or slings, watch the vids, (DMM and BD have good ones) NO ONE will recommend taking the chance. As a back up, I take a set of Metolius Alpine Aiders in case I drop mine.

Just to be clear, i am NOT saying that this is the best way or the safest way, but it is what works for me. Most videos decrying the use of daisies are advising people not to use them as a PAS, which is not what we're describing here. Even if the daisy that caught me had failed, or the piece pulled, i would have been caught by my belayer in another couple feet. I also find it hard to believe that a short fall onto a daisy could cause such severe bodily harm. Especially if you're wearing a nice comfy, padded big wall harness. As others have mentioned, there are other things that make it a less static fall.

I should also say that I'm FAR less experienced than Mark, so you should give his word way more weight. However, I did learn from Chris Mac's book, and he uses daisies to his aiders: youtube.com/watch?v=QyVtbmu…

If you are really worried about the daisy fall potential, you could always just make it a habit to unclip from the previous piece immediately after transitioning to the new piece, before you have taken any upward progress on it.

They can be used quickly and safely, Chris Mac ain't no slouch and neither are my two buddies. It takes a little more forethought and timing but if it's the technique you desire and want to learn I'm sure you can find a safe way to work it.

Hey guys thanks for all the info. I'm headed out to do moonlight buttress the end of January as my first wall climb so I'm still honing my technique. So happy this thread didn't devolve into a bunch of hypotheticals from people who have never aid climbed.

smurray47 wrote: you could always just make it a habit to unclip from the previous piece immediately after transitioning to the new piece, before you have taken any upward progress on it.

I think Chris Mac talks about this approach. It isn't fail safe though, because the piece I fell on popped immediately as I loaded it, and then I shock loaded the daisy. It isn't a bad approach by any means and is still pretty efficient. Just bounce test the hell out of anything remotely suspect, or don't attach your daisy to the aider as was suggested earlier.

I've rarely had anything fail after I've bounce tested it. I go nuts when I'm bounce testing though. My goal is to pull the piece out.

The most dramatic daisy fall I've taken was when I was right at the top of my aiders. The piece blew - all my fault, didn't really test it well as it looked good enough to use as free climbing pro. The daisy was still on the lower piece because it was a hook and I knew it would just drag off its placement and follow me up. So it would have been a 6ft FF2 ish fall.

It hurt. But not enough to stop me finish the pitch. The hook bent right open rather than snapping and I guess this might of taken some force out of the fall?

David Coley wrote:The most dramatic daisy fall I've taken was when I was right at the top of my aiders. The piece blew - all my fault, didn't really test it well as it looked good enough to use as free climbing pro. The daisy was still on the lower piece because it was a hook and I knew it would just drag off its placement and follow me up. So it would have been a 6ft FF2 ish fall. It hurt. But not enough to stop me finish the pitch. The hook bent right open rather than snapping and I guess this might of taken some force out of the fall?

do you have a picture of that hook? I'm curious to see the result. it amazes me that whipping onto a hook wouldn't just cause it to pop

fwiw, I've taken a high factor fall onto a dyneema daisy without injury, though I'm sure it's possible to mess yourself up (spine compression comes to mind).

They make daisy chains with integrated screamers, if that appeals to you.

On a side note, last June I witnessed a 150' FF2 fall on Lurking Fear: The leader was short-fixing, aggresively back-cleaning (only a red camalot was between him and the anchor) and climbing without daisies. He fumbled out of his aiders ~70' above the anchor, and the red camalot ripped out. He had minor kidney bleeding, 3rd degree rope burns, sprains/strains... but they were able to self rescue back down to the ground and to the trailhead. I got up to the location of the fall, and sure enough, there were 2 cams and 2 aiders hanging from the crack. Obviously this is an extreme case, with few redundancies, but daisies would have prevented this accident.

I don't climb in Yosemite nearly as much as I used to, and wasn't aware that climbing without daisies was a thing (aside from people basically french-freeing). So, I find this thread interesting.