Sliding X Power Points-Block Leading
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I haven't got out to climb multipitch trad in awhile :/ and I have changed my technique after reading "Climbing Anchors"by John Long. But basically, when I'm bringing up the second, I'm going to be attached to my belay anchors power point with a clove, or more likely a figure 8 with two lockers. I'll be belaying straight off my harness with an ATC, not redirected through anything (I realize there are situations where I'll need to change my technique but I want to have a system down that I can use very efficiently and repetitively under favorable circumstances). For the sake of my question, I'll say a statically equalized anchor is a textbook cordalette setup and a self equalizing anchor, for the sake of simplicity are two pieces of pro with a sliding X. |
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Well, a couple of things. First, a single locking carabiner on your lifeline is the norm. That locker isn't going to break. Just not going to happen. So you can free up some space there. |
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BenCooper wrote:Well, a couple of things. First, a single locking carabiner on your lifeline is the norm. That locker isn't going to break. Just not going to happen. So you can free up some space there. Second, a sliding-x anchor setup can usually accommodate several biners in a single powerpoint, and so can a tied off cordalette. So when the 2nd reaches the anchor, he should be able to clip in with his lifeline on a single locking biner, all with relative ease. Hope that helps.That does. Thank you. I don't like to use one carabiner where I could use two. The statement "just not going to happen" is not 100% true... It could. So why not use two. I understand it is impossible to be redundant sometimes(Single ropes, belay devices, belay loops, carabiners for belay devices, etc...)and that's okay, but why not be redundant if possible? Do three carabiners in a sliding X sound like too much? |
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I also just realized how long I made that description when I could've asked if a sliding X could incorporate more than one carabiner...I guess its because I've been having to meet length requirements on English papers lately... |
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JJ Brunner wrote: ...So why not use two. I understand it is impossible to be redundant sometimes(Single ropes, belay devices, belay loops, carabiners for belay devices, etc...)and that's okay, but why not be redundant if possible? ...Well, having 2 biners x 2 people = 4 biners at a sliding-x powerpoint (or any powerpoint, really) is going to be a huge cluster. The chances that something comes unclipped that shouldn't because the climbers misidentify which anchor is which is , IMO, a MUCH more likely scenario than a locked biner breaking. It'd be one thing in a TR setup, where the biner's out of sight, but a biner sitting at your face should not be cross-loaded or loaded over an edge, since you can tend to it. Being redundant is good, but if you clog things up (and slow yourself down) with too much extra nonsense --- and multiple biners per person at the powerpoint certainly qualifies as extra nonsense, you're going to cause hassle and introduce dangers based on the complexity of the system alone. That said, if you really want to back things up, how about taking an additional 'biner, cloving it to your rope, and clipping it to a high piece of pro? Then you're attached to the system in a second place and you don't clog the powerpoint. |
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Goran Lynch wrote: That said, if you really want to back things up, how about taking an additional 'biner, cloving it to your rope, and clipping it to a high piece of pro? Then you're attached to the system in a second place and you don't clog the powerpoint.I second that. With a sliding-x on a 2 bolt belay, One biner at the powerpoint (per climber) tied in with a clove hitch. Back that up with a fig-8 clipped to one of the bolts, that way you're backing up the sling as well as the biner. Highly recommend long's second anchors book "More Climbing Anchors", it's much better/more up to date than the first. Also look at getting a reverso or atc guide and belay right off the anchor. Switching back to lead takes no time and it makes it easier to manage the rope and gear. |
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IMHO, if you aren't traversing there is really no reason to be building sliding-x or self-equalizing anchors. The pre-equalized anchor seems to be the way to go 99% of the time, especially because your second is probably going to be hanging off of it (constant direction of pull) as you lead the next pitch. |
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JJ Brunner wrote: That does. Thank you. I don't like to use one carabiner where I could use two. The statement "just not going to happen" is not 100% true... It could. So why not use two. I understand it is impossible to be redundant sometimes(Single ropes, belay devices, belay loops, carabiners for belay devices, etc...)and that's okay, but why not be redundant if possible? Do three carabiners in a sliding X sound like too much?JJ, Two biners, but only one piece of rope, so you're not really redundant anyway. |
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If you`re going to double up on `biners you might as well use 2 runners/cordalettes in your sliding x as well, since if that 1 sling/cordalette breaks it wont matter how many biners or anchor points you have. If its a static anchor multiple strands of the anchor can fail and you`ll still be attached to your other anchor points. But as you`re probably thinking that would be overkill, just as multiple biners per climber is. |
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If it's a bolted belay and you're swinging leads, consider building the belay directly with the rope. Use either a bowline on a bight or a double figure 8. Clip one loop to each bolt. Easy to equalize before you weight it. On the free end of the rope, tie an 8-on-a-bight, and use that as your master point for directly belaying off of or as a redirect. It's fast, easy, and uses minimal gear. The downside is you can't easily adjust the length. |
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Even though this used to be a huge no-no, most people are starting to accept this. What I do is I clip one large pear locker into my master point (whether a sliding-x or static cordolette) and into that one biner I clip another locker tied off to me, a 2nd with my belay device (in guide mode) and then when my 2nd arrives they clip their locker into that same pear biner. I normally don't put 2 biners in this one "master biner" but I could see good reason too. I learned that from the Boulder Rock Club in a course this spring. Sounds sketch at first, but it works really well! |
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As a 5.8 leader climbing with other 5.8 climbers, there is no real scenario where you should be belaying directly off your harness with no redirect. Additionally, I would suggest that belaying off your harness with a redirect is also better than using an atc guide on the anchor - too many people have gotten hurt/killed when attempting to lower in that mode. |
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This thread kinda took off in a way I didn't want it to. I'll respond to you people later but being the MP addict I am, I am on this website when I have a class starting as I type... |
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Ok screw it, it's only calculus, which I'm struggling in... |
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I love how it can take me hours to write a one page long English paper but takes me no type to write that ^ |
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Almost all of your points are sound in theory, but are overkill/not going to work as well as you think in practice. You are taking a lot of wisdom brought to these people through extensive experience and tossing it out the window based on the last book you read. |
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alexanderblum wrote:Almost all of your points are sound in theory, but are overkill/not going to work as well as you think in practice. You are taking a lot of wisdom brought to these people through extensive experience and tossing it out the window based on the last book you read. One locking biner per person on the anchor is fine, two is crazy. Powerpoints get crowded very quickly. Sliding X's are overkill unless you are traversing or at a hanging belay with bad gear. And belaying directly off of your harness with no redirect is awkward, inefficient, and it is much harder to hold a fall/control the rope/lower than it is with a redirect. Try these things out on a real route (or a few hundred), and you will see why they are being recommended by almost everyone in this thread.I'm definitely not throwing any advice out the window. I agree one locker on a powerpoint is fine, but two is certainly not crazy. If there are 2 biners on a powerpoint and a figure 8 through those biners, the powerpoints not crowded at all, and you get redundancy. My question had to do with sliding X's, however I've never had it actually come down to a single sliding X at a belay (why I asked this question). I've used a redirect method on one climb before and belayed straight off my harness every other time. It may not work for you but it works for me and I believe it's more efficient. EDIT- Also, in my defense, I don't know the experience level of those responding on here but I do know the authors' experiences of the books I read. That being said, I'm still not disregarding any piece of advice given to me through this forum. |
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Let me try to draw some conclusions from this thread, speak up if you disagree! |
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alexanderblum wrote:Almost all of your points are sound in theory, but are overkill/not going to work as well as you think in practice. You are taking a lot of wisdom brought to these people through extensive experience and tossing it out the window based on the last book you read. One locking biner per person on the anchor is fine, two is crazy. Powerpoints get crowded very quickly. Sliding X's are overkill unless you are traversing or at a hanging belay with bad gear. And belaying directly off of your harness with no redirect is awkward, inefficient, and it is much harder to hold a fall/control the rope/lower than it is with a redirect. Try these things out on a real route (or a few hundred), and you will see why they are being recommended by almost everyone in this thread.+1 to everything he said! Also in response to Jon, I find belaying off the harness to be quite easy so long as I have a ledge to stack the rope. Also keep in mind that a redirect will almost double your force on the anchor (pulley effect). My choice for belay is autolock mode first, and straight off the harness if anchor is less than ideal or if I forsee having to lower my second at all. |
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Brett Brotherton wrote: +1 to everything he said! Also in response to Jon, I find belaying off the harness to be quite easy so long as I have a ledge to stack the rope. Also keep in mind that a redirect will almost double your force on the anchor (pulley effect). My choice for belay is autolock mode first, and straight off the harness if anchor is less than ideal or if I forsee having to lower my second at all.I'll try to cut down the amount I respond after this and let other people exress their opinions, but it's difficult, I don't have anything else to do right now... But in response to Brett, I don't have anything against belaying directly off the anchor with an autolock, its just slightly more efficient in my opinion if I belay the second up on my harness, tie the brake strand off, get my partner ready to lead, then untie the brake strand and they're off! |
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Jon H wrote:better than using an atc guide on the anchor - too many people have gotten hurt/killed when attempting to lower in that mode.Really?? I've never heard of any accidents associated with lowering from an ATC guide in guide mode. Can you cite some examples? JL |