Sliding X Power Points-Block Leading

I haven't got out to climb multipitch trad in awhile :/ and I have changed my technique after reading "Climbing Anchors"by John Long. But basically, when I'm bringing up the second, I'm going to be attached to my belay anchors power point with a clove, or more likely a figure 8 with two lockers. I'll be belaying straight off my harness with an ATC, not redirected through anything (I realize there are situations where I'll need to change my technique but I want to have a system down that I can use very efficiently and repetitively under favorable circumstances). For the sake of my question, I'll say a statically equalized anchor is a textbook cordalette setup and a self equalizing anchor, for the sake of simplicity are two pieces of pro with a sliding X.

I figure for swinging leads, anchoring the second will be accomplished by locking off my belay device. Block leading, however, is presenting more of a problem for me. Static equalized anchors(Cordalette)are easy. The second for example could take two lockers, clip into the master point and use a figure 8, clove, etc.. with that. I'm having a hard time visualizing how to simply and effectively block lead with a self equalized power point. Could the second shove another carabiner or two into a sliding x power point?

I also hate having my anchor come down to one carabiner. When my partner takes off and starts his lead, with a self equalized power point, is there a problem with having two carabiners in that sliding X? What about in a party of three? Could the belayer that's belaying the leader be anchored to the sliding X power point with two lockers and could the third party member squeeze a third carabiner in there and anchor themselves with a sling or something alike?

Again, I realize there are many different ways to anchor that could be superior in a given situation, but for my question regarding sliding X's, I want to develop an efficient approach. My scenarios in my head also assume they're on a nice roomy belay ledge. I understand this is a lot to read and I typed it all in one sitting so hopefully it's able to be understood. I can provided pictures if needed.

You Mountainproject Climbing-Gods that answer my questions are the best!

Well, a couple of things. First, a single locking carabiner on your lifeline is the norm. That locker isn't going to break. Just not going to happen. So you can free up some space there.

Second, a sliding-x anchor setup can usually accommodate several biners in a single powerpoint, and so can a tied off cordalette. So when the 2nd reaches the anchor, he should be able to clip in with his lifeline on a single locking biner, all with relative ease.

Hope that helps.

BenCooper wrote:Well, a couple of things. First, a single locking carabiner on your lifeline is the norm. That locker isn't going to break. Just not going to happen. So you can free up some space there. Second, a sliding-x anchor setup can usually accommodate several biners in a single powerpoint, and so can a tied off cordalette. So when the 2nd reaches the anchor, he should be able to clip in with his lifeline on a single locking biner, all with relative ease. Hope that helps.

That does. Thank you.

I don't like to use one carabiner where I could use two. The statement "just not going to happen" is not 100% true... It could. So why not use two. I understand it is impossible to be redundant sometimes(Single ropes, belay devices, belay loops, carabiners for belay devices, etc...)and that's okay, but why not be redundant if possible?

Do three carabiners in a sliding X sound like too much?

I also just realized how long I made that description when I could've asked if a sliding X could incorporate more than one carabiner...I guess its because I've been having to meet length requirements on English papers lately...

JJ Brunner wrote: ...So why not use two. I understand it is impossible to be redundant sometimes(Single ropes, belay devices, belay loops, carabiners for belay devices, etc...)and that's okay, but why not be redundant if possible? ...

Well, having 2 biners x 2 people = 4 biners at a sliding-x powerpoint (or any powerpoint, really) is going to be a huge cluster. The chances that something comes unclipped that shouldn't because the climbers misidentify which anchor is which is , IMO, a MUCH more likely scenario than a locked biner breaking. It'd be one thing in a TR setup, where the biner's out of sight, but a biner sitting at your face should not be cross-loaded or loaded over an edge, since you can tend to it.

Being redundant is good, but if you clog things up (and slow yourself down) with too much extra nonsense --- and multiple biners per person at the powerpoint certainly qualifies as extra nonsense, you're going to cause hassle and introduce dangers based on the complexity of the system alone.

That said, if you really want to back things up, how about taking an additional 'biner, cloving it to your rope, and clipping it to a high piece of pro? Then you're attached to the system in a second place and you don't clog the powerpoint.

Goran Lynch wrote: That said, if you really want to back things up, how about taking an additional 'biner, cloving it to your rope, and clipping it to a high piece of pro? Then you're attached to the system in a second place and you don't clog the powerpoint.

I second that. With a sliding-x on a 2 bolt belay, One biner at the powerpoint (per climber) tied in with a clove hitch. Back that up with a fig-8 clipped to one of the bolts, that way you're backing up the sling as well as the biner. Highly recommend long's second anchors book "More Climbing Anchors", it's much better/more up to date than the first. Also look at getting a reverso or atc guide and belay right off the anchor. Switching back to lead takes no time and it makes it easier to manage the rope and gear.

IMHO, if you aren't traversing there is really no reason to be building sliding-x or self-equalizing anchors. The pre-equalized anchor seems to be the way to go 99% of the time, especially because your second is probably going to be hanging off of it (constant direction of pull) as you lead the next pitch.

Secondly, belaying straight off your harness with the ATC with no re-direction is, in my experience, the least efficient and most ackward way to belay, not to mention the implications if you had to go into a rescue. This method is appropriate if the gear for the anchor is suspect, because your body takes a significant amount of the load. But if the gear is good and it is a typical multipitch situation, I would recommend belaying with an ATC on the harness redirected at least and ATC in guide mode on the anchor as optimal.

ATC in guide mode allows you to be "hands free" at any moment since it is self locking (which means you might be able to place your first piece on the next pitch while he's climbing up or drink some water or eat a power bar). Then when your second gets up you just clove em in to the master point and remove the ATC. Meanwhile, he's clipping gear to your cloved in line, your flipping the rope stack then re racking, he's putting you back on belay and boom your off in 5 minutes.

Just my two cents. Obviously there are no hard and fast rules.

JJ Brunner wrote: That does. Thank you. I don't like to use one carabiner where I could use two. The statement "just not going to happen" is not 100% true... It could. So why not use two. I understand it is impossible to be redundant sometimes(Single ropes, belay devices, belay loops, carabiners for belay devices, etc...)and that's okay, but why not be redundant if possible? Do three carabiners in a sliding X sound like too much?

JJ, Two biners, but only one piece of rope, so you're not really redundant anyway.

If you`re going to double up on `biners you might as well use 2 runners/cordalettes in your sliding x as well, since if that 1 sling/cordalette breaks it wont matter how many biners or anchor points you have. If its a static anchor multiple strands of the anchor can fail and you`ll still be attached to your other anchor points. But as you`re probably thinking that would be overkill, just as multiple biners per climber is.

If it's a bolted belay and you're swinging leads, consider building the belay directly with the rope. Use either a bowline on a bight or a double figure 8. Clip one loop to each bolt. Easy to equalize before you weight it. On the free end of the rope, tie an 8-on-a-bight, and use that as your master point for directly belaying off of or as a redirect. It's fast, easy, and uses minimal gear. The downside is you can't easily adjust the length.

Even though this used to be a huge no-no, most people are starting to accept this. What I do is I clip one large pear locker into my master point (whether a sliding-x or static cordolette) and into that one biner I clip another locker tied off to me, a 2nd with my belay device (in guide mode) and then when my 2nd arrives they clip their locker into that same pear biner. I normally don't put 2 biners in this one "master biner" but I could see good reason too. I learned that from the Boulder Rock Club in a course this spring. Sounds sketch at first, but it works really well!

As a 5.8 leader climbing with other 5.8 climbers, there is no real scenario where you should be belaying directly off your harness with no redirect. Additionally, I would suggest that belaying off your harness with a redirect is also better than using an atc guide on the anchor - too many people have gotten hurt/killed when attempting to lower in that mode.

Stick to the basics. Oh, and don't use a sliding X either - build a sliding X, but then put an overhand above the X, just like in a cordellete. Your second will thank me one day.

This thread kinda took off in a way I didn't want it to. I'll respond to you people later but being the MP addict I am, I am on this website when I have a class starting as I type...

Ok screw it, it's only calculus, which I'm struggling in...

Goran- I understand your point about the cluster. If the belayer has 2 lockers in the powerpoint with a figure 8 from his/her rope through both of them and a third climber has one locker in the powerpoint anchored to that by their own means, I don't think this is a cluster. I don't understand your other point about crossloading and loaded over an edge, could you elaborate?

The only person with multiple carabiners I would like to have would be the one belaying who could possible have to hold a fall.

I kind of wanted to keep it with the scenario that you only have two pieces of gear with a sliding X. How were you visualizing me taking a 'biner, cloving my rope to it and clipping a primary placement? I would already have my rope anchored to the power point and would not like to use too much of my rope to anchor if I'm block leading.

Larry- Are you talking about going straight from the clove on your powerpoint to a "primary placement"(piece of pro) with a figure 8? I have the 2nd ed. of Climbing Anchors by John Long which I believe is the most up-to-date book. I have an autolock device but that just means an extra step and belays. If I want to grab a snack, get water, or I'm expecting the second to hang on the rope a lot, I will take that extra step. Otherwise, I belay off my harness.

AWBivins- There are multiple reasons to use a self equalizing belay. In my scenario there are only 2 pieces of pro with a sliding X but certainly there are better ways to anchor... If the last piece of pro under the belay is off to the side, you're traversing, the leader must do a short traverse right off the bat, the pro is sketch, or the pro is bomber are just some of the reasons you'd want to use a self equalizing belay.

I agree its more awkward belaying right off your harness, but in my opinion, if you're swinging leads it's most efficient. I don't think a possible extra step in a rescue is worth considering when choosing you belay method. I agree with a good anchor, an autolock device is most comfortable, but if you dont need food or water, you're not taking pictures, and the second is not going to hang a bunch, I feel straight off your harness is most efficient while swinging leads. In block leading I don't think it really matters...

AWBivins again- I do have a partner that has doubles! But why not be redundant where you can. It's not my favorite thing in the world that belaying is non-redundant but that's just the way it is..

RockinOut- My goal is to be as redundant as possible but also efficient. An extra carabiner in a powerpoint takes very little time and it could be comforting if the next leader takes a factor 2 fall on the belay anchor. In my scenario there was one sling, but ideally, in my actual anchors there will be redundancy.

SlowTrad- The point of me throwing that second biner in there is to have two biners when I put the next guy on lead. I have less of a problem belaying a second up on one carabiner, just look at an autolocking device...

I usually use a clove to the powerpoint but now I'm thinking I'll figure 8 it so I can clip it into two biners easily if I don't need the clove's easy adjustability.

That's the first time I've heard of the draw/piece of pro in belay anchor idea. Interesting... Although I'd still prefer the belay anchor to be my only protection until the first piece is placed. That way, if I fall on a single piece from my belay anchor and it fails, then I'm left with my belay anchor minus 1.

In my opinion, my method is not a cluster, but no two climbers think exactly the same!

Larry again- I personally think an anchor with a cordalette/slings etc.. is much more versatile and quicker to set up. I understand that an experienced person could probably set up an anchor with the rope faster than I could set up my anchor my way. I'm not completely opposed to the idea. But that only works efficiently swinging leads like you said.

Wehling- I feel that is unnecessary and could put unusual and a little more unpredicable forces on the carabiners anchoring you since it's metal to metal. I'd personally avoid that if possible.

Jon H- I don't mean to be rude, and I certainly appreciate your response, but let me point out some problems I have with your statement "As a 5.8 leader climbing with other 5.8 climbers, there is no real scenario where you should be belaying directly off your harness with no redirect." What does the grade you climb at have to do whatsoever with your technical abilities? And using a redirect puts twice the force on the piece you're redirecting through as opposed to belaying straight off the piece. If you belay off your harness, it is possible that there will be absolutely no force on your anchor if you're holding the second purely by yourself. The real-life scenario of having an anchor too sketchy to trust would cause you to need to belay directly off your harness instead of solely trusting the anchor. Hopefully 99.9% you have an anchor you can trust, but you have to realize that there is a scenario where you'd need to belay directly off your harness. And if you expect to have to lower, yes, don't use an autolocking device. But lowering on a multipitch isn't very common.

There are situations where you want a self equalizing belay, if you put an overhand above the X, you just created a statically equalized anchor, kind of defeated the purpose...I'd definitely recommend John Long's Climbing Anchors 2nd ed. to you. It's helping me decide which are the best anchors to use for sure. Don't take this discussion as my entire extent of technical knowledge. I wanted to get people's takes on multiple carabiners in sliding X's.

Thank you everyone. These discussion are great. I'm sick :( and skipping class :) and it definitely is good for me. Second best to actually getting out and climbing of course, but what can one do? I hope nobody's offended, these discussion are meant to help all of us climb SAFE and efficiently!

I love how it can take me hours to write a one page long English paper but takes me no type to write that ^

Almost all of your points are sound in theory, but are overkill/not going to work as well as you think in practice. You are taking a lot of wisdom brought to these people through extensive experience and tossing it out the window based on the last book you read.

One locking biner per person on the anchor is fine, two is crazy. Powerpoints get crowded very quickly. Sliding X's are overkill unless you are traversing or at a hanging belay with bad gear. And belaying directly off of your harness with no redirect is awkward, inefficient, and it is much harder to hold a fall/control the rope/lower than it is with a redirect.

Try these things out on a real route (or a few hundred), and you will see why they are being recommended by almost everyone in this thread.

alexanderblum wrote:Almost all of your points are sound in theory, but are overkill/not going to work as well as you think in practice. You are taking a lot of wisdom brought to these people through extensive experience and tossing it out the window based on the last book you read. One locking biner per person on the anchor is fine, two is crazy. Powerpoints get crowded very quickly. Sliding X's are overkill unless you are traversing or at a hanging belay with bad gear. And belaying directly off of your harness with no redirect is awkward, inefficient, and it is much harder to hold a fall/control the rope/lower than it is with a redirect. Try these things out on a real route (or a few hundred), and you will see why they are being recommended by almost everyone in this thread.

I'm definitely not throwing any advice out the window. I agree one locker on a powerpoint is fine, but two is certainly not crazy. If there are 2 biners on a powerpoint and a figure 8 through those biners, the powerpoints not crowded at all, and you get redundancy. My question had to do with sliding X's, however I've never had it actually come down to a single sliding X at a belay (why I asked this question). I've used a redirect method on one climb before and belayed straight off my harness every other time. It may not work for you but it works for me and I believe it's more efficient.

EDIT- Also, in my defense, I don't know the experience level of those responding on here but I do know the authors' experiences of the books I read. That being said, I'm still not disregarding any piece of advice given to me through this forum.

Let me try to draw some conclusions from this thread, speak up if you disagree!

Most of us agree WHEN to use a sliding X(Traverses, bad gear, etc..). My question had to do with a sliding X solely but that should be avoided if possible.

I disagree with belaying straight off my harness with the majority of you. Most of you like autolocking devices and there were a few that liked redirects.

Most of you would rather use one locker than two if a belay anchor all comes down to a sliding X power point.

If I got this last point correct, in a statically equalized cordalette anchor (Textbook Setup) would you rather use one or two locking carabiners in the power point? I'll tell you right now I'd rather use two in a cordalette powerpoint but would like to hear your opinions.

alexanderblum wrote:Almost all of your points are sound in theory, but are overkill/not going to work as well as you think in practice. You are taking a lot of wisdom brought to these people through extensive experience and tossing it out the window based on the last book you read. One locking biner per person on the anchor is fine, two is crazy. Powerpoints get crowded very quickly. Sliding X's are overkill unless you are traversing or at a hanging belay with bad gear. And belaying directly off of your harness with no redirect is awkward, inefficient, and it is much harder to hold a fall/control the rope/lower than it is with a redirect. Try these things out on a real route (or a few hundred), and you will see why they are being recommended by almost everyone in this thread.

+1 to everything he said!

Also in response to Jon, I find belaying off the harness to be quite easy so long as I have a ledge to stack the rope. Also keep in mind that a redirect will almost double your force on the anchor (pulley effect). My choice for belay is autolock mode first, and straight off the harness if anchor is less than ideal or if I forsee having to lower my second at all.

Brett Brotherton wrote: +1 to everything he said! Also in response to Jon, I find belaying off the harness to be quite easy so long as I have a ledge to stack the rope. Also keep in mind that a redirect will almost double your force on the anchor (pulley effect). My choice for belay is autolock mode first, and straight off the harness if anchor is less than ideal or if I forsee having to lower my second at all.

I'll try to cut down the amount I respond after this and let other people exress their opinions, but it's difficult, I don't have anything else to do right now...

But in response to Brett, I don't have anything against belaying directly off the anchor with an autolock, its just slightly more efficient in my opinion if I belay the second up on my harness, tie the brake strand off, get my partner ready to lead, then untie the brake strand and they're off!

Jon H wrote:better than using an atc guide on the anchor - too many people have gotten hurt/killed when attempting to lower in that mode.

Really?? I've never heard of any accidents associated with lowering from an ATC guide in guide mode. Can you cite some examples?

JL