Backup for ascending fixed lines

So what do you guys use to back yourself up when jugging lines that are fixed at the top and bottom? And were assuming your using running man style here, not the froggy way

I know some of you are going to say use a grigri but what if the lines are so tight that you would be pulling slack through the grigri every 5-10ft? - That would get annoying and be very slow

you cant tie into the end of the rope and tieing in short would only allow you to go maybe 10ft before you had to retie, so what do you do?

add a friction hitch above your top jumar attached to your harness; at a length that won't interfere with the top jumar.

A prussik.

Mark,
Are you pushing this hitch up with your top ascender? How do you prevent it from choking up your ascender?

Yates Rocker with a short sling for extension. You'll never have to pull slack because it feeds like a hot knife through butter.

addicted2alpine wrote:I know some of you are going to say use a grigri but what if the lines are so tight that you would be pulling slack through the grigri every 5-10ft?

Why would the line you're jugging be that tight? You usually only have to pull rope through for the first 10-20ft, then it should slide (especially if modified, but DON'T do that!) If not a gri-gri then try a mini-traxion, pretty much the same as a Yates Rocker as recommended by E. Jolley.

Cody Cook wrote:Mark, Are you pushing this hitch up with your top ascender? How do you prevent it from choking up your ascender?

It needs to be at a length that won't interfere with the top jumar -- i.e. there's a little bit of slack in the cord from the harness to the prusik hitch when you fully extend your top jumar.

Also, the cord needs to be a sufficient large diameter so that the jumar minds the hitch.

Not for nothing but two points to the climber's harness on a fixed line meant for jugging only are fine with me -- if anything, just put a safety biner on the lower jumar.

If negotiating a buldge where you will need to take the top jumar off, then slap a hitch on.

Mini Traxion.

Mark Nelson wrote:add a friction hitch above your top jumar attached to your harness; at a length that won't interfere with the top jumar.

I second this, and everything Mark posted after. This is good advice. I prefer the Prusik Knot on 6mm cord for the friction hitch. You will need to experiment with lengths of cord before you figure out what works best for you. I typically use a 6'-(foot) 6mm cord tied into a loop with a triple Fisherman Knot. I also attach my back up to a leg loop with a locking biner to keep the belay loop area in my harness "cleaner".

YOU DON'T NEED A BACKUP! Sheesh.

You're jugging a fixed line - it's not under tension, it's not diagonalling, you're not cleaning gear, it's just a fixed line. Doesn't matter whether you are using a Froggy system or standard Yosemite system, the rules are the same:

Two points of attachment at all times.

If you cross a knot, if you are getting onto or off of the rope, you have to be attached with two points. If your jug is on your daisy, then you will need a "third arm" or some separate point of attachment. People die [frequently] when their life is held by a single jug.

If you feel you want some sort of backup [I would never do this], then here are your options:

- prusik [horrifically cumbersome, you have to slide the bloody thing along unless somebody knows something I don't] At any rate, prusiks are symmetric and only hold on half their wraps - use an asymmetric Klemheist instead

- Grigri - sometimes works, but tends to hang up on the rope until you have a lot of weight underneath it. Sure as hell won't work when using Frog system, not bad with Yosemite, I would never do this

- Mini-Trax, Pro-Trax [consummate piece of junk], Wall Hauler [see Pro-Trax] - will probably work pretty well, as long as you get the orientations right. Don't leave any slack in your system, because you don't want to fall onto a toothed cam

- wtf is a Friction Hitch? I have heard Munters referred to in this way

- the Better Way is probably something like a Yates Rocker or a Petzl Shunt. John Yates gave me a rocker, though without any instructions, and I have never really figured out how to work the damn thing

Summary: don't bother. Two points of attachment at all times, and you're good.

I've used a prussic above my jumar and it worked totally fine on fixed lines, but it sounds like Pete knows WAY more than I do. Certainly it isn't as fast as just two jumars. Funny thing is I can't remember which jumar it was above - lower or upper. Clearly for fixed lines it would be above the upper, but if you are cleaning a pitch then it would have to be on the lower one.

The prussic is a bit difficult until you get off the ground/ledge/belay a ways if I remember. If you are a novice (and I still am on this stuff) it felt way more comfortable than just the two jumars. When you are just getting going on jugging you have the tendency to get all mixed up...sometimes requiring resetting the jumar...leaving you on only one. Having a prussic (or as he mentions Klemheist) is not a bad way to start IMHO. Perhaps the Shunt or Rocker are better.

Can you describe this "third arm" for passing a knot or a piece of pro if you are cleaning? Say if you are doing a diagonal pitch and have a third person below you. You need to leave the end rope at the belay below so the third can jug next. How do you keep two points if you need to unclip a jumar around a piece of pro...or whatever.

You can also run a third ascender on a long sling that rides above the top handled one. A Gibbs is good for this, as it's free running and does not rely on springs to catch. Kong also now makes some sort of gear for this it appears.

But Pete is right, it's unnecessary.

Minitraxion on your belay loop works like magic. I only use a biner in both of the top holes on my jumars though personally.

Oh yeah, forgot about the Gibbs! Tim is right. But of course, Tim is also a caver. Gibbs is similar to a Petzl Rescuescender.

I've seen Tom put a Klemheist directly above his ascender. Seems silly, but it did work, and didn't seem to slow him down any.

Paul - a third arm is just some sort of third point of attachment. When I am leading an aid climb, I typically use two adjustable daisies with aiders on them. [Well, Russian Aiders, but that's another story]. When I get scared, I have a third adjustable daisy, to clip into pieces when it's marginal. It's handy to have when jugging, though - many people put their jugs on their two daisies, meaning they don't have another [redundant] point of connection when moving jugs on and off the rope, but you need one, or you will end up dead.

"Third arm" can be:

A third daisy, a sling and a crab girth hitched round your donut, a locker on your donut tied into a loop in the rope, whatever! Just never hang your life on a single ascender, and you will probably live to tell the tale. The converse is also true.

In the situation you describe, leave enough slack in the rope so that you tie a backup knot when needed, like when you pass a piece of pro.

Actually, on a diagonalling pitch, you should be cleaning the pitch using a Grigri as an ascender. Evidently you haven't seen this post, so study up! It will tell you everything you [n]ever wanted to know about how to clean an aid climb.

mountainproject.com/v/big_w…

If nothing else, you will see some big wall hotties!

Oh yeah, one other point, when the rope is diagonalled in any way, be sure to clip a crab through the hole at the top of the ascender to keep the rope from popping out. Ascenders can and do pop off diagonalled rope with alarming frequency!

so when you are cleaning an aid pitch you have a third point of pro? It apparently sounds obvious to you guys but my old school aid friends never mentioned this. They just hopped their upper ascender past the piece and quickly back on to the line. So I guess I need to experiment with one of the systems mentioned below...

edit to thank you for the cool post on cleaning aid pitches.

It's usual to use grigri as a backup for cleaning.
Or simply tie backups to your harness regularly.
That way you also have your rope close to you not dangling in the wind
waiting to get stuck somewhere.
But that's for cleaning, when you have to unclip that upper jumar now and then.

"They just hopped their upper ascender past the piece and quickly back on to the line."

At least two people have died doing this on the fifth [diagonalling] pitch of Tangerine Trip. TWO DEATHS in the SAME WAY!

Note: In my younger [stupider] days I used to cross rebelays in caves without sometimes clipping in my cow's tail aka third point of attachment, just cuz I figured I was OK being attached by a single ascender. I no longer do this, and while I would never claim to not be stupid, I am just a little less stupid than I used to be.

Thanks for the info Pete! This is really appreciated. Something I think that may seem obvious, but I can see easily how someone (myself included) would just think "Well the jumar is only off for a second and then back on. No problem"

I've only cleaned pitches and have tied backup knots along the way, however now I know what to do if the line you are jugging doesn't follow you along.

uh knot.
If a static line, uh-nother rope.

I'm really glad you post this stuff. It just goes to show how much there is to learn about climbing. Its a wonder people like me don't blow it more often. I just jump in there and do it like I was told and hope for the best.

for instance, I was working on the fa of a steep aid pitch this summer. I'd been shut down and rapped from my high point off a sketchy piton. When I went back and started jugging back up, (sans grigri backup) the piton blew and I fell on the ascenders(thank goodness to my neighbor for loaning me a pair of BD's). Fortunately, everything held but when I continued up I found the piton had doslodged a 12"x6"x4" block that somehow did not fall right onto my head. I'd taken like three whippers onto that piton and never liked it. The .11+ slab topout above it was really freaking me out. Its a badass steep line that I still need to get back and send... just lucky I wasn't a statistic.