Thoughts on training and Individual Limits

This was well received in general climbing forum so reposting here so that some might benefit. Suggest edits! 

It's an open dialogue.   

"Guys, It doesn't matter what you weigh, per se or that you only climb some number that is not impressive to others.

Rocking climbing (especially the big numbers) IS all about finger strength in proportion to weight.

Like 98% of the sport. All the rest of the big muscles come easily to support your body weight. Virtually anyone starting from generally fit can train to do one arm pullups and stand on dimes etc.

However, you cannot train your finger crimping power to be **anything** you need it to be. It's a gift from birth just like being able to be a world class sprinter, marathoner or MLB pitcher. You cannot by virtue of simple hard work crimp whatever you want (though you can definitely improve!). Didn't some teenager just run a 1:40 mile or something? It wasn't from hard work; it was a gift from birth. If it was hard work, then the guys that have trained hard for 20 years could do it, but they can't. You can improve your finger power and endurance dramatically, but ultimately there will be limits you have to accept. That is why only 0.001% (or something) of climbers can tick 5.14c etc.

Among the World Class of genetic gifts, then yes, the hardest workers/best minds now are the ie World Record holder. But hard work is not enough if you are not genetically gifted. Those are the facts of exercise physiology at the highest levels. This is not intended to impose limits on anyone per se. Just trying to inject some balance into the conversation.

Maximize finger power to weight so yes, a slim build is ideal (I am an old fatty of course) and a positive ape index for doing big numbers. Cardio will get you up more long climbs than finger power alone of course. If you can't do the hike, you can't do the route.

But ultimately once on the route, it's virtually all in your ability to hold on to the holds (neglecting heinous chimneys etc.). What one man cannot crimp is another's jug to do what he wants. So it goes, and don't mean a thing to your personal climbing journey! The goal is improvement; the biggest numbers are for the gifted.

The kid with the worst technique I ever saw walk into the gym and very briefly on my climbing team at Pacific Edge in Santa Cruz was Chris Sharma. Just appalling foot technique and I can still see the same jerky style when he is struggling. But he could campus the foot holds on overhanging 5.11 that very first day...

That day he walked in at 12yo he could campus better than anyone you have ever seen.

Couple years later at 15yo he put up 5.14c (hardest route in the USA at the time) once his foot technique got more efficient. Gifted. He never trained in his life other than climbing/bouldering until well into his 30's when finally, Ondra was better. He then realized that maybe some focus (lol) on a given weakness might be needed. 

**your** limit cannot be compared to others because it is based on your individual genetics in the muscle fiber type and metabolism in your forearms. World Class climbers have the genetics. If you are reading this, you most likely don't. Your training goal should be to be improve yourself, not to compare to others albeit competition is a good framework/structure for your personal journey. But ultimately you are only competing against yourself.

This in fact is the beauty of climbing! It's a purely individual sport when it comes to climbing one specific move or sequence. Every man's limit is 5.15 to him. Train for your personal enjoyment/best PR goals met. But you will find your limits. Don't compare yourself to others. You are running an individual race with your own path. Don't get depressed thinking you suck. We all take the same risks when we leave the ground from 4th Class to 5.15c. Climbing itself is truly a participation trophy. We are so privileged to climb and be outside seeing beauty that few get to see let alone experiencing summits!

And when there are 100,000's of climbers another mutant kid will always be up and coming. Don't compare yourself to him/her just like you don't compare yourself to Usain Bolt or some guy who can throw a baseball 100 mph. It's a gift from birth and they are not better people for it. Just really good at their gift. Chris just also happens to be a really good guy. It's usually the wannbe try-hards that are dicks. To be fair, when it comes easy to you it's easy to be kind lol. When you are stressed and at your limit, we are not always at our best.   

If you want to win climbing have the most fun, challenge yourself to exceed previous limits and don't worry about other's abilities (and be kind and FFS stay safe).

Everyone has genetic limits.  Very few will ever come close to them.  

I agree we shouldn’t be negative towards ourselves based on the achievements of others.  But honestly, blaming your disappointments on genetics is probably a lame excuse.  Have fun, be more creative, and yeah, try harder.

Caleb wrote:

Everyone has genetic limits.  Very few will ever come close to them.  

I agree we shouldn’t be negative towards ourselves based on the achievements of others.  But honestly, blaming your disappointments on genetics is probably a lame excuse.  Have fun, be more creative, and yeah, try harder.

The idea is not to "blame" anything at any time whatsoever regardless. I also think it's pretty toxic to call nearly anything a "lame excuse" in doing anything as optional and filled with risk as climbing. I mean (for example) what is your lame excuse for not climbing 5.15? It's laughable to suggest something like that. And everyone has their 5.15...Regardless of what someone offers as their reason for not meeting some goal we have no idea what they were truly trying to overcome. 

The idea is simply to realize that you are on your own path to better fitness and working towards your own goal regardless of the crusher next to you. Seek self-improvement not comparison.

But it IS all biology friend, and that includes motivation, susceptibility to counter-productive urges etc etc as well as the content of the physiology of your forearms. People come up against these biological limits every day they go out.

I guess I am tired of the "buck up and try harder" toxicity in climbing because this idea of "blaming your disappointments" is just wrong from the start, imo. It's like "the beatings will continue until morale improves". The path always takes you back to the valley below. Climbing itself is a self-imposed challenge of the privileged mostly.

And Climbing ain't football summer camp where we need to haze others to meet our expectations.

NHL, 1970s. A team of hard-working, earnest give-your-all types is playing the Canadiens, a highly skilled team. The Canadiens win. A journalist interviewing one of the losing players tells him, "You guys really worked hard out there."  Player: "Sometimes, if you don't have talent, hard work doesn't work." 

John Tuttle wrote:

The idea is not to "blame" anything at any time whatsoever regardless. I also think it's pretty toxic to call nearly anything a "lame excuse" in doing anything as optional and filled with risk as climbing. I mean (for example) what is your lame excuse for not climbing 5.15? It's laughable to suggest something like that. And everyone has their 5.15...regardless of what someone offers as their reason for not meeting some goal we have no idea what they were truly trying to overcome. 

The idea is simply to realize that you are on your own path to better fitness and working towards your own goal regardless of the crusher next to you. Seek self-improvement not comparison.

But it IS all biology friend, and that includes motivation, susceptibility to counter-productive urges etc etc as well as the content of the physiology of your forearms. People come up against these biological limits every day they go out.

I guess I am tired of the "buck up and try harder" toxicity in climbing because this idea of "blaming your disappointments" is just wrong from the start, imo. It's like "the beatings will continue until morale improves". The path always takes you back to the valley below.

And Climbing ain't football summer camp.

I may have come off a bit strong, sorry.  Climbing is not exclusively about performance and there’s very little value in self degradation.  Even on the performance side I agree you shouldn’t base goals and expectations on the achievements of others.  

But frequently, people use their specific physiology as an excuse for their failures and I don’t see much value in that either.  For example, many people blame their height or weight on their inability to climb a route or do a move.  And of course some bodies can reach farther or jump higher or whatever.  I have certainly encountered moves that were uniquely suited to my own body, or uniquely challenging.  But we all know when people tip over into consistently blaming their height (or other physiological trait) whenever they struggle.  They’re making excuses instead of working with their personal difficulties.  

Honestly, if I told you I couldn’t climb 5.15 because I was too tall, that would be a lame excuse.  I can’t climb 5.15 because I’m not that good.  I wouldn’t suddenly be a 5.15 climber if I shrunk 3 inches.

Yes, we all have a physiology that affects our behavior.  But how fatalistic do we want to be here?  It feels self defeating to believe in a predetermined limit to your ability.  Especially if you think you have reached it.

I probably shouldn’t have said “try harder”, though sometimes that is reasonable.  Perhaps “try more” or “try again” or “try differently” or “keep trying” are better.  It’s not a macho thing at all.  There’s nothing wrong with coming to the conclusion that you don’t have the strength, or the flexibility or endurance or whatever.  But once you have identified that thing, don’t give up.  There’s probably a work around or way to improve.  

Ultimately, the difficulties we encounter may be big enough that giving up is totally warranted as well.  But throw yourself at that wall for a while.  Doubt your inability.  A bit of extra flailing rarely does harm.

Caleb wrote:

I may have come off a bit strong, sorry.  Climbing is not exclusively about performance and there’s very little value in self degradation.  Even on the performance side I agree you shouldn’t base goals and expectations on the achievements of others.  

But frequently, people use their specific physiology as an excuse for their failures and I don’t see much value in that either.  For example, many people blame their height or weight on their inability to climb a route or do a move.  And of course some bodies can reach farther or jump higher or whatever.  I have certainly encountered moves that were uniquely suited to my own body, or uniquely challenging.  But we all know when people tip over into consistently blaming their height (or other physiological trait) whenever they struggle.  They’re making excuses instead of working with their personal difficulties.  

Honestly, if I told you I couldn’t climb 5.15 because I was too tall, that would be a lame excuse.  I can’t climb 5.15 because I’m not that good.  I wouldn’t suddenly be a 5.15 climber if I shrunk 3 inches.

Yes, we all have a physiology that affects our behavior.  But how fatalistic do we want to be here?  It feels self defeating to believe in a predetermined limit to your ability.  Especially if you think you have reached it.

I probably shouldn’t have said “try harder”, though sometimes that is reasonable.  Perhaps “try more” or “try again” or “try differently” or “keep trying” are better.  It’s not a macho thing at all.  There’s nothing wrong with coming to the conclusion that you don’t have the strength, or the flexibility or endurance or whatever.  But once you have identified that thing, don’t give up.  There’s probably a work around or way to improve.  

Ultimately, the difficulties we encounter may be big enough that giving up is totally warranted as well.  But throw yourself at that wall for a while.  Doubt your inability.  A bit of extra flailing rarely does harm.

Yes, we are more aligned now.

The idea most certainly is that we can improve fitness, strategy or re-forming goals.  Sometimes that is also redefining success (ie being realistic).

Every day spent outside is a win.

Comparison is the thief of joy. 

Milton Berle?

Years ago I was wining about some move being reachy for me.  Hans (Florine) looked over and said “Not reachy.  Powerful.  You can’t get taller but you can get stronger.”

Another time I was complaining about my negative ape index.  Chris (Block, a badass way negative ape index boulderer) interrupted me with “dude, you’re lucky, it’s a mechanical advantage, makes you more powerful.”  

Christopher Clay wrote:

Years ago I was wining about some move being reachy for me.  Hans (Florine) looked over and said “Not reachy.  Powerful.  You can’t get taller but you can get stronger.”

Another time I was complaining about my negative ape index.  Chris (Block, a badass way negative ape index boulderer) interrupted me with “dude, you’re lucky, it’s a mechanical advantage, makes you more powerful.”  

I know them both. Of course, Chris was naturally very powerful and Hansie was always more of an endurance athlete. He never reached his goals as a sport climber so turned to speed ascents.

They both knew to play to their strengths.

Don't think about it.  Just go do it. . .

It’s true that everyone has a genetic potential, but climbing is also an extremely skill based sport. There are many many ways to be good at climbing,and I think your take that it all boils down to inborn physical traits is a bit reductive.

Most people never come close to touching their genetic potential, especially if they aren’t pro athletes dedicating all their energies to finding their absolute limit. For most there is always room to get better.

I recently saw an interview with Sorato Anraku (one of the top comp climbers currently) talking about how when he first exploded onto the world stage he couldn’t do a one arm and could only do about ten pull-ups. He was beating out “stronger “ climbers with better technique. 

There is some truth to the thrust of your idea that it can be unhealthy to compare yourself to others, but that is not the full picture. I think there are ways to do it negatively and ways to do it positively. One can be inspired by the feats of others without beating oneself up about not matching them.

we’ve all seen it before sessioning a climb where someone sends and then the send train begins. Suddenly it’s possible because we’ve seen someone else do it. Many of our limitations are self imposed ideas in our heads. Your line of thinking does a little too much to enforce those limits for my tastes. 

nowhere wrote:

It’s true that everyone has a genetic potential, but climbing is also an extremely skill based sport. There are many many ways to be good at climbing,and I think your take that it all boils down to inborn physical traits is a bit reductive.

I recently saw an interview with Sorato Anraku (one of the top comp climbers currently) talking about how when he first exploded onto the world stage he couldn’t do a one arm and could only do about ten pull-ups. He was beating out “stronger “ climbers with better technique. 

I don't mean to suggest that it "all" boils down to inborn physical traits just that the facts of exercise physiology are that there are individual limits that no amount of training can overcome. That might be 5.9 or 5.15x. The OP is simply a plea to recognize that your physical limits have the same "worth" regardless of the numbers because climbing is individual. We truly only compete against ourselves. 

For example, taking bouldering as a particular case that is power dependent, it's tempting to measure ourselves against the most powerful athletes in our sport. This is a fool's errand. As much as we might love bouldering the top athletes are the Usain Bolts, or guy that can throw 100 mph. Only one in a million individuals have the genetics to compete at this level. If your limit is V4 then you can improve. But it is very unlikely that V12 is a realistic goal etc.

And that is more than fine! Your V5 is Ondra's V15, there really is no difference to the individual.

Further, while Sorato Anraku may have had weaker large muscles, I assure you he has profound genetic gifts in his forearms (contact strength).

Every single world class comp climber has profound genetic gifts. As stated, the best mind among those mutants will win a given comp but they are all "one in a million" level athletes.

World class comp climbers are outliers representing something like the top 0.0001% of the 25-30 million climbers worldwide so no skill or strength they have is "normal" and they most certainly have not taken "average" gifts and succeeded by hard work alone. They won a genetic lottery and then improved on that with hard work (that they also have the mind to love).

It's like saying a corn-fed boy from Iowa built more for pulling a plow can "through hard work and dedication" compete with world class Kenyans in the Marathon. It is impossible due to body type/muscle fiber type distribution/physiology (though he may be able to be very good at the shot put). 

That's why all the track and field athletes specialize. They match their gifts to the distance/event that aligns with their physiology and then train that. Unfortunately climbing does not have such varied events as track where the full range of body types can find their niche.

The OP is also about climbers recognizing that in themselves as well: align with your physiology.

This is really resonating with me.  I can see the appeal of both sides of the coin.

On one hand, the anguish of failure or not reaching a lofty expectation can really be a bummer.  Accepting that the goal was lofty and that it’s ok to not reach it can bring some relief.

On the other hand, without something very challenging to pour myself into, I feel lost.  Accepting something as too hard is the easy way out, and I would rather regroup and continue the battle.  

I don’t really believe I’m up against my physical limits yet. But it’s challenging to figure out what to do differently to break plateaus. It seems trying hard and running head first into the problem isn’t as effective as it used to be.  If I go too many days on I start to regress and worry about injury.

I guess that’s the beauty of it all. The never ending road.  The journey that is itself the destination.  Never surrender, always enjoy.  

Caleb wrote:

Everyone has genetic limits.  Very few will ever come close to them.  

I agree we shouldn’t be negative towards ourselves based on the achievements of others.  But honestly, blaming your disappointments on genetics is probably a lame excuse.  Have fun, be more creative, and yeah, try harder.

He isn't blaming anything. He is explaining why you nor I will ever climb 5.15 no matter how much we train. And it should provide a feeling of relief. 

Hypothetically, average joes like myself, could have no job + a world class trainer + world class nutritionist + no life obligations and we still couldn't climb 5.15, run a 3 minute mile, deadlift 1000lbs, or throw a 100mph fastball. 

As a climbing coach, I agree that there is something to the genetic aspects of strength and aptitude but there's much more going on than that in actual practice.

https://alpinist.com/features/the-threshold-effect/ is a little bit old but I think it still holds up upon rereading.

Particularly important are the restrictive aspects of the community you find yourself in. Communities that dismiss bolts, training, or working routes as cheating (very popular attitude in the 70s and 80s) or deriding "gym climbers" as "soft" or whatever are unhelpful to advancement. If you want to get better, climb with others who want to get better and don't spend time with people who are insecure about themselves and rely on contrived rules or imagined limits to hold themselves and others back.

Peter Beal wrote:

As a climbing coach, I agree that there is something to the genetic aspects of strength and aptitude but there's much more going on than that in actual practice.

https://alpinist.com/features/the-threshold-effect/ is a little bit old but I think it still holds up upon rereading.

Particularly important are the restrictive aspects of the community you find yourself in. Communities that dismiss bolts, training, or working routes as cheating (very popular attitude in the 70s and 80s) or deriding "gym climbers" as "soft" or whatever are unhelpful to advancement. If you want to get better, climb with others who want to get better and don't spend time with people who are insecure about themselves and rely on contrived rules or imagined limits to hold themselves and others back.

Always appreciate when you chime in.

Thoughts on genetics: I often view folks saying genetics hinder them and think sure maybe, but I bet not as much as folks think. As far as my research has gone there are few causation studies to support genetics aside from the genetic deficiencies that are visible. 

Again, my understanding, is when researchers go looking for genetic markers common to athletes they find some but those markers aren't discreet and universal. It doesn't matter much to me as I feel like I balance my athletic pursuits with family and work in a healthy way for me and I'm very happy with where I am physically as well as mentally.

Todd Berlier wrote:

Always appreciate when you chime in.

Thoughts on genetics: I often view folks saying genetics hinder them and think sure maybe, but I bet not as much as folks think. As far as my research has gone there are few causation studies to support genetics aside from the genetic deficiencies that are visible. 

Again, my understanding, is when researchers go looking for genetic markers common to athletes they find some but those markers aren't discreet and universal. It doesn't matter much to me as I feel like I balance my athletic pursuits with family and work in a healthy way for me and I'm very happy with where I am physically as well as mentally.

Take Track events. 

Are you trying to tell me that genetics don't hinder people?

There literally is a different physiology for virtually every different difference with the obvious extreme being the 100M v the Marathon, shot put v long jump. Your average joe cannot be remotely competitive in any of those disciplines at a world class level despite professional training. It is a fact of exercise physiology that world class performers are genetic outliers specialized for their discipline. While there may not be singular genes that are solely responsible, the net sum of the effects of their genetic makeup led to an elite athlete. As a molecular biologist I totally agree that there are no simple "markers" for elite performance and the human genome is fantastically complex in net sum. That does not mean for a second that genetics don't play a profound role in elite athletic performance.

It's like saying "you just need the right attitude to compete with Usain Bolt...or Janja Ganbret" and that is simply ridiculous. Even among her peers, if hard work and attitude were enough to compete with an incredible athlete like her then we would have a different winner every week on the circuit. Instead, one athlete dominates. Genetic gifts. Power in the forearms and a brain to figure out the moves.

This is the dilemma of climbing: It's so dang fun that nearly anyone can enjoy it (ie far more likely than running for pleasure, imo) but they simply rarely have the genetics to truly excel.

Take a look at comp climbers. They are all of a type. Light framed with incredible genetic power in their forearms (gibbons rather than gorillas). This is not an accident that this body type is ideal for climbing at the highest levels. Very little variation from this will be competitive at world class events (which should mean nothing to anyone's enjoyment of their own climbing).

Peter Beal wrote:

As a climbing coach, I agree that there is something to the genetic aspects of strength and aptitude but there's much more going on than that in actual practice.

https://alpinist.com/features/the-threshold-effect/ is a little bit old but I think it still holds up upon rereading.

Particularly important are the restrictive aspects of the community you find yourself in. Communities that dismiss bolts, training, or working routes as cheating (very popular attitude in the 70s and 80s) or deriding "gym climbers" as "soft" or whatever are unhelpful to advancement. If you want to get better, climb with others who want to get better and don't spend time with people who are insecure about themselves and rely on contrived rules or imagined limits to hold themselves and others back.

There are very few substitutes for the right peer group for any kind of pursuit be it the arts, academia or sport etc. 

But the right peer group with not get you up 5.13c or V12, imo. I know too many guys that gave their whole life to climbing and trained like fiends to believe differently.

I guess I don't necessarily disagree with anything you're saying, getting into that highest tier does require natural talent or at least having started at a very young age. However I don't see necessarily the point in reminding yourself of that. Reaching your personal potential does require some sense of delusion. I am pretty sure I have 0 genetic physical talent for this game but I am absolutely going to tell myself I can send Freerider and 14a if I try really, really hard. I don't know if that's true or not, but telling myself otherwise will definitely result in failure. 

(that being said, while I don't think anyone can be #1, I do think anyone can climb 14a if they try hard enough and make the necessary sacrifices...)

Shay Subramanian wrote:

I guess I don't necessarily disagree with anything you're saying, getting into that highest tier does require natural talent or at least having started at a very young age. However I don't see necessarily the point in reminding yourself of that. Reaching your personal potential does require some sense of delusion. I am pretty sure I have 0 genetic physical talent for this game but I am absolutely going to tell myself I can send Freerider and 14a if I try really, really hard. I don't know if that's true or not, but telling myself otherwise will definitely result in failure. 

(that being said, while I don't think anyone can be #1, I do think anyone can climb 14a if they try hard enough and make the necessary sacrifices...)

The point of reminding yourself of that is the opportunity to realize that your personal goals are your own in this individual sport. And as above, comparison is the thief of joy.

No one is limiting you, other than yourself and your physiological limits. While those limits may be improvable, that may be to a limited degree. 

Be all you can be, just don't beat yourself up comparing yourself to others. 

Keep in mind that less than 0.001% of climbers have ever done 5.14a...I guess we all suck?