Half Dome has fallen.

Tony Danzawrote:

Yea except there are these things called laws.

Yes. And there’s no law preventing placing bolts in Yosemite. 

Kevin Corriganwrote:

Also, if you want to talk about celebrating boldness in our sport—putting those bolts in was pretty bold, so kinda hypocritical to criticize them for murdering the impossible on a 5.7 slab without acknowledging that retrobolting it took way more courage than climbing the route in it's runout state, knowing what a shitstorm it would set off. Makes them the Alex Honnold of retrobolting IMO.

It takes exactly zero courage to drill a few bolts alone in the middle of the night and the anonymity is a big reason why these will be removed within the week. I believe the way this was done was beyond cowardly and pathetic. If you can’t publicly justify your actions, especially actions this significant, then you’re a coward for doing it in hiding and without accountability or the burden of justification. Had the vigilante explained his reasoning and put forth a legitimate reason these would have a 5% chance of staying and as is they have a 0

Were the guidebook sales just not cutting it?

Marc801 Cwrote:

Yes. And there’s no law preventing placing bolts in Yosemite. 

From NPS: Drilling protection bolts for climbing is permitted in Yosemite as long as it is done by hand. Motorized power drills are prohibited.

So if they hand drilled, sure. But do we think someone hand drilled six new bolts up there?

Erik sloan has been power drilling in Yosemite for decades now

Hey Tanner, I appreciate your perspective on this specific subject. Maybe you would educate me a bit on what is the current “hard line”(?) Yosemite opinion?
As previously stated, I am ok with some added bolts on Snake Dike, based on a variety of things, some of them I have expressed, some I have not.

Things that bother me, personally, are: fixed ropes on APPROACHES, bolted convenience rap routes, and some of the relocated anchors, and apparently some pitches relocated by adding and/or removing bolts. Oh, and “off season” fixed TRS ropes on classic Valley short crack routes, another convenience item.

To me there is a disconnect between a “hard line” stance on Snake Dike, and what I outline in the above paragraph. Can you, or anyone closely connected to the current Valley scene, help me understand the reasoning? 

(I’m not closely connected to the Valley scene.)

It seems the destiny of the new bolts is settling down. Better to have had this discussion before any change occurs to a long established route. 

Awhile back, the topic of tradition came up. While tradition can impede progress - however that is measured, tradition tends to persist if well aligned with human nature.

Besides climbing ability, variety is embedded in human risk tolerance. So the relative safety of new routes also varies. Since the variety in humans seems likely to persist from generation to generation, it makes sense to preserve long-established routes as they were.  Leave something that appeals for every type of climber.  In a phrase, I think, let’s keep this tradition to benefit us all through the generations.

Eric Craigwrote:

Hey Tanner, I appreciate your perspective on this specific subject. Maybe you would educate me a bit on what is the current “hard line”(?) Yosemite opinion?
As previously stated, I am ok with some added bolts on Snake Dike, based on a variety of things, some of them I have expressed, some I have not.

Things that bother me, personally, are: fixed ropes on APPROACHES, bolted convenience rap routes, and some of the relocated anchors, and apparently some pitches relocated by adding and/or removing bolts. Oh, and “off season” fixed TRS ropes on classic Valley short crack routes, another convenience item.

To me there is a disconnect between a “hard line” stance on Snake Dike, and what I outline in the above. Can you, or anyone closely connected to the current Valley scene, help me understand the reasoning? 

I'm not supporting fixed ropes or anything else that breaks NPS wilderness laws. However, there is a big difference between tying some nylon to fixed gear that is already in place, and using a hammer to permanently change a classic route. This also recently happened on the nose. The main difference is that after discussions like this happen, whether it happens at the bridge over some beers, or on the interwebs behind a screen, a fixed rope can simply be removed wherease the actions of the hammer-wielders will never be fully erased. 

I agree that convenience gear is lame in a traditional climbing area like Yosemite. I also see hypocrisy in my own thinking because while I think that all the bolted anchors on el cap are great, the bolted royal arches rap route is totally lame. Arches was first climbed nearly 100 years ago without a single bolt and a nice 2 mile hike back to the base. If anything, the arches rap route puts newer climbers in danger by setting them off on the most deadly activity in the sport right when they're getting tired and it may be getting dark! On the other hand, the Salathe originally had 13 bolts. Now you climb past nearly that many before you even get to the slabs! I guess what I'm getting at is that there is no "hard line."

Michael, I really appreciate your reply, and your opinions. I agree with damn near everything you wrote. A bit of hypocrisy is going to happen if you (or I) are honest. And a bit of hypocrisy is part of the history and traditions of Yosemite climbing.
Thank you.

Kevin Corriganwrote:

Good. Tradition is a terrible justification for anything.

What’s wrong with all kinds of routes existing harmoniously together? Some naturally protected, some closely bolted, and some bold and run out. Are you afraid of diversity?

So, does this mean we can slam some bolts in double cross now??

Cole Ingwrote:

Were the guidebook sales just not cutting it?

A grown adult ebegging on Mountain Project ..? Time to hit the oil rig, brother! 

Bill Lawrywrote:

A few thoughts:

About whether more bolting is planned - maybe not.  Most of the standard first pitch of Snake Dike is off to the right of this new line of bolts.  Presumably, the way of the standard first pitch has Not been bolted.  So the bolter may have felt like they could get away with this bolted line since the standard way is untouched (?).

Before these bolts, this way was promoted by Erik Sloan in his guidebook (2020 copyright) as the "best start".  I've led it sans bolts.  By a long shot, that was the spiciest part of the route as we did it that day and would Not call it the "best start" for someone leading at the grade.  Maybe bolting the line cements this way as the "best start" for the masses.  Or maybe bolting this line was  motivated by a guide not wanting to stress clients over a possible pendulum fall the standard way.  In any case, there is reason to believe this is all the bolter plans to do.  We don't know.

My intent above is not to justify the bolts.  My vote is to remove them and patch the holes.  They change the character of the overall route and implicitly open the door to anyone else bolting higher up on Snake Dike.  The ASCA's guidelines - if that matters here - are to get general agreement by the local climbing community for which no attempt was made apparently.  

About the FA-ists opinion - Roper did retro-bolt Snake Dike after an FA advocated for adding more bolts. And then it has been climbed for decades with rave reviews - see MP quality ratings.  Did Beck climb it again after Roper's retro-bolt, afterwards judging that even more bolts were needed? Or was Beck just emotionally reacting to that terrible life-changing accident a few years ago when a leader got off route on a pitch higher up. I don't know.

I suggest trusting Roper's judgment.  More generally, I advocate that the weight of an FA-ist's opinion should fade over time - decades in this case - for frequently climbed classic routes like this.

From their website: "The ASCA does not provide hardware to add additional bolts to climbs." As far as I've ever heard, ASCA (my favorite climbing nonprofit) helps with anchors, and REbolting old stuff, preferably in the exact hole, not bolting where nine have ever existed. They do mention special circumstances, such as an anchor to save wear and tear on trees, but that's where the community consensus part comes in.

Helen

Mark Starr wrote:

That's about 4 hours of work for someone that knows how to hand drill. Takes me about 30-35min per bolt in granite. Also depends on the length of the bolts. Maybe Yosemite granite is harder than where I am, but needless to say, it's totally doable in one session for the motivated hammerer. 

Oh for sure, it’s not a Herculean effort, but if I were betting, I’d bet on power drill. Hanging out for four hours means you might get caught. 

amariuswrote:

Cosmic Hotdogwrote:

I definitely do not think it's ok to add bolts to a route like this and I think John Long said it perfectly in two separate quotes from the article I linked below:

• "If a route involves considerable risk and risk-management skills, it’s the climber’s responsibility to understand the stakes, and what such a route demands of them as a leader meeting those risks firsthand. Credible guides and teachers always teach self-reliance—that every climber is responsible for themselves and the choices they make. Climbing is voluntary. We freely choose to attempt a route or not. The fact that every route is not to our liking is nobody’s “fault,” and we can’t arbitrarily go changing things to meets our needs, tastes, or standards; the world doesn’t work like that. So we learn to make compromises, acknowledging one of the basic tenets of being a grown-up person: Nobody gets it all."
• "Here is where you run into the silly entitlement fluff from people who don’t have the psychological resources to shut up and climb a perilous challenge. Most of all, these people struggle being told—or facing a situation—where they have to climb boldly or they cannot play. In fact, the few routes that require something special from a leader have always been the talk of the town. Not every route is for everybody, nor should it be."

Paywalled but use a site like byebyepaywall to bypass it: https:/www.climbing.com/culture-climbing/retro-bolt-easy-moderate-rock-climbs-peter-croft-snake-dike-half-dome-debate

I am not into the lore of the Snake Dike, but IIRC John Long was not the FA?

Here is what the FA said about SD in the linked article right above yours:

Snake Dike is an old route of mine, together with Jim Bridwell and Chris Fredericks. On the first ascent, we were continually expecting much harder climbing and were conserving our supply of 12 bolts as well as hoping to get down in a day. We left the route with single belay bolts and two protection bolts. We realized that this was totally inappropriate for a moderate route, which we could already see would be popular as it was so pretty.

[Steve] Roper did the second ascent. We implored him to add more bolts, which he did, admirably. He doubled all the belay bolts and added a protection bolt on the runout pitches. He also got down in a day.

I asked other parties to add more bolts. I even put in a plug for this when I was speaking at Oakdale a few years ago. Ideally, I would like to see five protection bolts where it is run out. This is similar to the routes on Dozier Dome in Tuolumne.

Roper once asked, “Is every climb for everybody?” It may look like I want to defang the Snake Dike and bring it down to the lowest common denominator, but the Snake Dike is not a test piece. It has no fangs. It is a lovely route on one of the great monoliths of our planet. Had we had more time and more bolts, we would have done it ourselves [during the first ascent.]

There is a tradition with which I concur that the first ascent party should be the arbiter of style on a climb. Bridwell is gone and Chris has vanished from the climbing scene. So I am once again asking the climbing community add some more bolts to the Snake Dike.

So, there you have it - FA says ADD MOOORE BOLTS!

The THREE FA people had several decades to change the route.  2/3 of them did NOT agree that it needs more bolts.  The Time Limit to dumb the route down has LONG Passed.  Thousands have done this route AS IS.  NO MORE BOLTs will be tolerated.  PERIOD.

Daniel Shivelywrote:

What’s wrong with all kinds of routes existing harmoniously together? Some naturally protected, some closely bolted, and some bold and run out. Are you afraid of diversity?

I'm fine with all kinds of routes existing. For this specific route, it doesn't make sense. First of all, as I said in a previous comment, the runouts are contrived. They were not determined by nature. They were determined by some guys with bolts. But more importantly, the desirable characteristic of Snake Dike isn't that it's runout. People want to climb it because it's a 5.7 that goes up Half Dome. The vast majority of climbers are climbing it despite the runouts, not for the runouts. So the character of the route doesn't fit the desires of it's users. We're not talking about the Bachar-Yerian here.

tom donnellywrote:

amariuswrote:

The THREE FA people had several decades to change the route.  2/3 of them did NOT agree that it needs more bolts.  The Time Limit to dumb the route down has LONG Passed.  Thousands have done this route AS IS.  NO MORE BOLTs will be tolerated.  PERIOD.

Since when do you decide for everyone? Cringe.

That being said idk if more bolts should be added. Probably not

When I was a beginner on the East Coast, more than 25 years ago, flipping through old Climbing mags, I read about this world-famous route up this insane feature called Half Dome in a mythical place called Yosemite, on the far side of the country. It was only 5.7, but what made it special was the endless "easy", barely protected climbing up this lone feature that formed a highway up toward the sky. 

Leading any route felt like a distant dream to teenage me, and I didn't ever think I'd be able to climb in Yosemite, let alone do a major, scary route like Snake Dike. 

But time passed, and I slowly gained more experience and confidence. I got stronger, learned to lead, learned to place gear, continued to learn the craft of overland travel and how to be an outdoorsperson who can safely and respectfully recreate on our public lands, and eventually I moved out West and began to explore the Valley myself. But still, I waited to try Snake Dike until I was ready. 

And when I felt ready, I got up 3 am, hit the trail in the dark, and was first on the route. The 5.7 parts weren't bad, and soon I was at the base of that spectacular golden ribbon pointing up at the sun. The climbing was less juggy than I expected, but each move flowed to the next and my shoes felt sticky on each rounded foothold. With the bolts out of sight below me, I moved confidently and steadily up, propelled by the knowledge that I had climbed thousands of feet of similar terrain. The dike rolled away under my feet until I reached the alcove at the end of the difficulties. After grinding up the slab, my stomach dropped peering over the edge of the NW face, a view that's hidden until the last moment.

 The day I did Snake Dike was one of my most memorable days of climbing, up there with my first lead, my first 5.11, and my first el cap summit. 

It will not be the same if it gets tamed into some "modern" approximation of a route. The run-outs make the experience. 

I grieve for future generations who will not have the experience I had. I hope the rebolters rethink their mistake--their theft of this magical experience from the future --and if it comes to it I hope the new bolts are removed. 

PS.  for my thoughts on why adding bolts will make this route worse but not safer, see my post on the 2022 thread. 

Man, this topic pops up every couple years and there really isn't ever a cohesive argument for why we shouldn't add more bolts other than being submissive to old men who happened to have the time and bolts before other people showed up. It's odd to see a sport claim so much influence and history from counter culture movements, renegades etc, be so beholden to conservative ideals like following tradition for its own sake, lionizing "great men of the past" etc. 

Xander Cage jrwrote:

Man, this topic pops up every couple years and there really isn't ever a cohesive argument for why we shouldn't add more bolts …

Entitlement does tend to blind some to the fact that one person’s drink is another’s poison.  Humans are wonderfully varied.

One may at first think that labeling a pro-bolter here as entitled is also a form of entitlement or a kind of hypocrisy. But it actually represents a generosity in leaving a variety of climbs to satisfy the variety of humans which will always be.