Duality of Man 5.15d

Seth Cohenwrote:

Omg I miss climbingnarc so much! Peak climbing content absorption. 

real onez know

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

I'm always skeptical when someone FA's their newest hardest grade. Not too mention when they skip a grade, and have extremely limited experience on the previous one. My guess is that Biblio is confirmed and Duality gets downgraded by the euros

Any new grade has to be FAed as a new grade? 

Connor Dobsonwrote:

Any new grade has to be FAed as a new grade? 

Reading is rough for some, including myself...what I thought I had articulated was that I am skeptical whenever someone skips a grade to establish new grade. Of course a new grade has to be FA'd as a new grade. My skepticism comes whenever the person who FA's that new grade has limited (or no experience) with previous grades, such as the case here. Sean Bailey had only climbed 1 route of 15b and/or 15c difficulty before he proposing 15d....I feel like the logic behind my skepticism is sound, whether you agree or not. 

This would be like me FA'ing a boulder and calling it V12 even thought I've only climbed V10, I would expect skepticism from others and wouldn't be surprised if someone downgraded it.

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

Reading is rough for some, including myself...what I thought I had articulated was that I am skeptical whenever someone skips a grade to establish new grade. Of course a new grade has to be FA'd as a new grade. My skepticism comes whenever the person who FA's that new grade has limited (or no experience) with previous grades, such as the case here. Sean Bailey had only climbed 1 route of 15b and/or 15c difficulty before he proposing 15d....I feel like the logic behind my skepticism is sound, whether you agree or not. 

This would be like me FA'ing a boulder and calling it V12 even thought I've only climbed V10, I would expect skepticism from others and wouldn't be surprised if someone downgraded it.

I too am skeptical if the grade will hold, but this analogy, like many others, is kind of a gross simplification.

A better analogy would be if you climbed v10 really quickly, had sport climbed and FA'd a bunch of 14b/c, and proposed a v11 boulder.

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

Reading is rough for some, including myself...what I thought I had articulated was that I am skeptical whenever someone skips a grade to establish new grade. Of course a new grade has to be FA'd as a new grade. My skepticism comes whenever the person who FA's that new grade has limited (or no experience) with previous grades, such as the case here. Sean Bailey had only climbed 1 route of 15b and/or 15c difficulty before he proposing 15d....I feel like the logic behind my skepticism is sound, whether you agree or not. 

This would be like me FA'ing a boulder and calling it V12 even thought I've only climbed V10, I would expect skepticism from others and wouldn't be surprised if someone downgraded it.

Well, Bailey did climb Bibliographie, which has had only five ascents (his included), and has a reputation of solid .15c, downgraded from c. 

Frank Steinwrote:

Well, Bailey did climb Bibliographie, which has had only five ascents (his included), and has a reputation of solid .15c, downgraded from c. 

Hence why I stated, "My skepticism comes whenever the person who FA's that new grade has limited (or no experience) with previous grades, such as the case here. Sean Bailey had only climbed 1 route of 15b and/or 15c difficulty before he proposing 15d....I feel like the logic behind my skepticism is sound, whether you agree or not. "

I'm not sure what your point is regarding Bibliographie though. Nobody is arguing Bibliographie's grade...however, my point still remains that is the only route of that grade (1 lower than Duality of Man, mind you) that Bailey climbed prior to his FA. 

There’s only a handful of 15ds for him to even try and they’re all in Europe. There are now 5 proposed 15ds and NONE have been repeated. That tells me that not only are they very hard, but that people climbing at that level care more about investing their time in a first ascent.
And Jakob only had 1 9b+ before BIG and Seb had 0. There’s not that many 9b+ routes either.

I don’t think Duality will get downgraded. The route breaks down to something like a 15a to a V15. Sean’s not the only extremely strong climber to be trying it. If you think it’s soft then go climb it and down grade it. 

Evan Atwaterwrote:

There’s only a handful of 15ds for him to even try and they’re all in Europe. There are now 5 proposed 15ds and NONE have been repeated. That tells me that not only are they very hard, but that people climbing at that level care more about investing their time in a first ascent.

Or it could be, as you literally just said, there are only 5 of them.

And Jakob only had 1 9b+ before BIG and Seb had 0. There’s not that many 9b+ routes either.

Jakob had 8 sends of 9b prior to sending 9c, that's significantly more than Sean Bailey's singular send. Seb also said that he thought DNA was between 15c and 15d and it would need repeats to become more solidified. 

Fair counterpoints though, and FWIW I think that both B.IG. and DNA also should warrant some skepticism. Both were projected alongside Megos or Ondra (iirc) whereas Duality has not seen any action by those two to my knowledge.

I don’t think Duality will get downgraded. The route breaks down to something like a 15a to a V15. Sean’s not the only extremely strong climber to be trying it. 

I'm unaware of any other climber who has sent 5.15c trying it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but who else has actively tried it; My guess would be Coleman, Kinder or Siegrist is who you're referring to? It's a 5.14c into a V11/V12 into a V15 with rests in between....which to be fair is 5.15d according to darthgrader, but that's not really my point. My point is that I just wouldn't be surprised if it gets downgraded. I have no place to say whether or not it is or is not 5.15d...I am just skeptical and would not be surprised if it gets downgraded. 

If you think it’s soft then go climb it and down grade it. 

Well that's certainly not how it works. This is equivalent to me saying, " if you think it is 5.15d, then go climb it to confirm the grade....". As I just stated, I have no business downgrading this route. Both of our opinions on this are equally as irrelevant to the actual grade (as are everyone else's on this forum), my point has been that I wouldn't be surprised if (someone qualified) downgrades it.

Jakob allegedly went to try it on his recent trip to the US. Idk if he posted anything about his experience on the route or has opined about the difficulty. 

In the film, Sean and Nathaniel described the route as 5.15a to a rest to a v15 boulder (evidently grouping Lee Majors and the opening boulder of the extension as 15a).

Honestly this strongly opiniated armchair grade skeptism is getting pretty tired. The route sounds hard and looks cool af. I can only dream of being strong enough to even try Lee Majors. I hope we see more people try Duality despite its relatively remote locale and bad conditions.

I’m not saying I’m qualified to judge the grade of the route, I’m only saying I believe Sean is more than qualified and did not take the grade lightly. If you put 5+ climbers who have climbed V16 or V17  on the boulder problem, and Sean is the the only one to be able to do it regularly/ at all, you can bet the problem is pretty fucking hard.
I just want to appreciate cool looking next level climbing rather than instinctively try to cut down the grade. Maybe you’re right though, not even these top climbers have a clear understanding of what 15d/9c really is yet. Only time will tell. 

It’s way too early to know if any 15d route holds the proposed grade.  No 15d claims have been challenged by anyone qualified because they all require so much work to send.  There will need to be multiple repeats of multiple 15ds before the grade solidifies.  

And it’s important to remember that the grade can only represent the route so much.  Duality looks and probably climbs very different than the other routes in that range.  Someone may crush in Flatanger and flail on American desert limestone or the opposite.  That doesn’t mean the routes aren’t all at the very edge of human accomplishment.  

I think all these super hard routes are extremely cool.  The exact grade doesn’t seem that important.

Evan Atwaterwrote:

I’m not saying I’m qualified to judge the grade of the route, I’m only saying I believe Sean is more than qualified and did not take the grade lightly. If you put 5+ climbers who have climbed V16 or V17  on the boulder problem, and Sean is the the only one to be able to do it regularly/ at all, you can bet the problem is pretty fucking hard.
I just want to appreciate cool looking next level climbing rather than instinctively try to cut down the grade. Maybe you’re right though, not even these top climbers have a clear understanding of what 15d/9c really is yet. Only time will tell. 

Personal opinion here (which is crazy for some people to understand I suppose) but I would trust Sean's judgement on boulders 100% more than his judgement on sport routes. That's just given his ticklist and history of sends. Just as I would trust Sharma's or Megos or Ondra's judgement on sport routes 100% more than their judgment on boulders. Sean is a badass and Duality looks awesome, but the issue on this site is still that some don't understand that someone can be skeptical of a grade or a route while also not criticizing it. 

@caleb above regarding grades. While grades may not matter to a lot of people posting here. You can bet your ass grades mean a significant amount to the pros. Not only for intrisic values, but often for monetary/promotional reasons as well. Nobody gives a fck about some 5.13 or V8, even with a good story most of the time....but mention a piece of shit 5.15d or V17 and it's getting hundreds of thousands of views when a video is released.

Sean is not a slouch on ropes, in addition to a quick 9b+, he has world cup wins and nearly flashed a 9a+. 9c is a bold grade proposition by anyone but he certainly has the resume to make it plausible. We won't know until someone else repeats it, just like all the other proposed 9c's. 

As an aside, I trust Adam's boulder grades quite a bit, the man has an incredibly impressive boulder resume (4 8C flashes!!!). I do not think he should be used as an example of someone with lopsided experience with grades.

Israel Rwrote:

Sean is not a slouch on ropes, in addition to a quick 9b+, he has world cup wins and nearly flashed a 9a+. 9c is a bold grade proposition by anyone but he certainly has the resume to make it plausible. 

Sean is not a slouch, but I’m just not sure I would consider one 9b+ send (that took him 20+ sessions to send) as necessarily a qualified resume, but if you do, I won’t argue with ya….

We won't know until someone else repeats it, just like all the other proposed 9c's.

I agree….though, I’d argue the other 9c’s will almost certainly see more action just based on proximity and ease of accessibility 

As an aside, I trust Adam's boulder grades quite a bit, the man has an incredibly impressive boulder resume (4 8C flashes!!!). I do not think he should be used as an example of someone with lopsided experience with grades.

Admittedly, Megos is a better example….but up until recently Ondra had only really done one other established top tier boulder (V16+) in Gioia iirc

New video where Jakob appears to make relatively quick work of several of the crux moves and sends Lee Majors second go? It also highlights the challenges of conditions, the winter sun stays on the wall longer and leaves only a brief window in the dawn or twilight for good temps. 

Having spent many seasons at this cliff it truly blows my mind to see some of climbing's greats focused on our local choss pile. 

So Duality as a project was a bit of an open secret courtesy of the Petzl videos Nathaniel made a few years ago. This got me thinking - is there anywhere to browse open projects at the top end of the sport? I’m sure there’s a ton, even if filtered down to lines with a “crusher co-sign” who can actually vouch for the estimated grade. I’m sure there’s Celeb Cave came out of nowhere for a lot of people, it would be cool to know where others may pop up in the future as well.

Tal Mwrote:

So Duality as a project was a bit of an open secret courtesy of the Petzl videos Nathaniel made a few years ago. This got me thinking - is there anywhere to browse open projects at the top end of the sport? I’m sure there’s a ton, even if filtered down to lines with a “crusher co-sign” who can actually vouch for the estimated grade. I’m sure there’s Celeb Cave came out of nowhere for a lot of people, it would be cool to know where others may pop up in the future as well.

Almost every guidebook or area has projects listed (IE like mountainproject.com/route/1…), but in many I think the ethics dictate getting permission from bolter or the local org/group before working it. 

Tal Mwrote:

So Duality as a project was a bit of an open secret courtesy of the Petzl videos Nathaniel made a few years ago. This got me thinking - is there anywhere to browse open projects at the top end of the sport? I’m sure there’s a ton, even if filtered down to lines with a “crusher co-sign” who can actually vouch for the estimated grade. I’m sure there’s Celeb Cave came out of nowhere for a lot of people, it would be cool to know where others may pop up in the future as well.

https://climbing-history.org/list/51/projects

Obviously not comprehensive, but a list of famous hard projects.