Why don’t we tie the ropes together as a stopper when rappelling?

So fyi I’ve been climbing for like 15 years or something. I’ve always tied two stopper knots in the end. Why don’t we just square knot them together and then toss the rope bomb? Semi serious question, just really a thought I had. 

I have heard form Andy K that you don’t want to do it because as the ropes spin the will get bound up and furthermore the loop is more likely to get stuck!

I’m in with Finn:  more likely to get stuck on something and/or twist up.

Some will instead tie the ends of the ropes to their harness for the rap.  Have seen significant twist-age issues this way as well.

https://people.bath.ac.uk/dac33/high/10GettingBackDown.htm ( with plenty of neat diagrams to help explain things). 

Control + F  ----- "B. Putting Knots in the End of the Rope"  

Control + F ------"F. Making Sure you Don’t Let Go of the Rope "

It's an option, I imagine the ropes would twist a bit because the ends aren't free to spin separately. I haven't tested this yet. I definitely wouldn't use a square knot in climbing rope though. That thing comes undone like the dickens in my experience.

Finn Lanverswrote:

I have heard form Andy K that you don’t want to do it because as the ropes spin the will get bound up and furthermore the loop is more likely to get stuck!

I wonder if the site I posted here has information he no longer agrees with then/has since changed his mind? 

Not too hard to try out and find out.  That's how Kirkpatrick acquired the knowledge he shares.  

I’ve tried it and can confirm that it becomes a twisted nightmare.

aside from the twisting problem, getting both ends stuck is infinitely worse than having a free end to work with. 

A couple of folks mentioned the rope twisting up, but I'd also be concerned to whether the knot would hold if a climber lost control of their rappel, slid fast, and hit the knot with a lot of force.

Is a square knot a good enough stopper to keep from reefing or rolling if you push up hard into it? The way your rappel device pushes on the knot might matter a lot to how the knot fails.

Have you tried rigging it on the ground, and pulling it with body weight? I don't have any data to start thinking about this -- maybe somebody else has some experience, or can point to some pull/drop test results.

In a tagged rappel context, I've been told that a flat overhand / EDK will start rolling ~4kN in climbing rope. But as a rappel stopper, it seems like a different kind of loading, and I wouldn't want to guess.

Maybe you could tie a barrel knot on both strands, together? Not a double fishermans bend... More like a "flat barrel", I guess, but I've never heard that term. If i was forced to set this up at gunpoint, I'd probably do it this way -- but without some testing or real world observation, I'd still have concerns.

Very cool question, though. Fun to ponder.

Tying the ends together is one of many options that exist when rappelling. 

There is no universal option for knotting your rope when rappelling - you need to assess the situation and decide. There are even situations where NO knots is appropriate.

Ryan Lynchwrote:

A couple of folks mentioned the rope twisting up, but I'd also be concerned to whether the knot would hold if a climber lost control of their rappel, slid fast, and hit the knot with a lot of force.

Ryan, 

Really good point!  I see a lot of newer climbers incorrectly tying the stopper knot and/or, not leaving enough tail behind the knot.  I've seen this in both rappels and when "closing the system" in other scenarios.

I have watched a partner rap with the rope attached to him and it became a twisted nightmare.

I core shot a rope this way when rapping on to some scree. The loop created by the knot caught a sharp rock which cut the sheath with all the twisting and bouncing around. Would not recommend.

Here's a video where Steph Davis recommends tying both ends together with an overhand: https://youtu.be/6Rso7yR_tAs?t=2314

As Grug mentioned, it can depend on where you're at. For instance, I don't at Red Rocks or going down crack routes anymore unless it's a rope stretcher to the next anchor. I've had a few raps that the knot got stuck below me as I'm pulling the rope through and it was a major hassle. 

In the end do whatever you feel is more comfortable. And take a knife:-)

Iz K wrote:

Love a good resurrection thread

Me too ;)

for the life of me, I don't understand why clipping the ends seems so difficult to people, and produces so many excuses (twist, catch, etc). I understand it certainly adds up to two minutes per rap to 1) throw an overhand/8 on a bight, clip to a free biner on corresponding side of harness, 2) stack loops of rope over corresponding arm for about 15m worth of rope, from the end clipped to yourself, 3) repeat process on other side of rope... 

Now you only have a loop of about 20-30ft of rope going down each strand, and 20-30ft coming back up to yourself (the rest of rope is resting on each arm... or saddlebag if you want to take the time to do that), significantly mitigating chance of snags. Start your rap and rap 50-60ft, now you've run out of the "loose" rope and you're about to start spooling the stacked rope off of each arm... *if* any twists begin to occur, and *if* the rap is clean, you can simply pop the bight off of the appropriate side and let it drop, allowing the twist to unspool itself. If the route is snaggy, then just stop and put the bight in your fingers and twirl it until the twist is dealt with. The time savings of no snags seems more than worth the minor extra effort spent to keep everything clean (plus now the second can make up even more time by zipping down b/c the first is giving them a fireman belay to save the time of a 3rd hand).

jordandwrote:

Here's a video where Steph Davis recommends tying both ends together with an overhand: https://youtu.be/6Rso7yR_tAs?t=2314

Once I did tie both ends together during one of eight 60m rappels back down a long mixed climb.

It ended up in a rigid and twisted mess (even with an ATC) and made it impossible to rap down the last ~10 metres of rope as the single knot got caught on a flake. That took a few minutes of annoying and unwelcome problem solving, and I went back to knots on each rope.

I've so far not encountered the issues she mentioned (one tail snagging, or forgetting to untie a knot and then have it snagging at the anchor during a pull). Not disputing this does happen, but best advice is to experiment in a safe environment (and not in the middle of a long retreat off a mixed climb) and find the safest and simplest system that works for you, together with some basic what-if procedures in case of snags and twists. Rappelling still gives me the heebie-jeebies (mostly anchor-related), so it's always interesting to read what others do, and be reminded of one's own previous encounters.

Ive only done this once, and it was very dependent on the situation. It was quite windy, this first rap out of 5 was off of a roof, mostly free hanging but went to a cozy ledge where the next rap was. Very little chance of getting caught. I joined the lower ends with an obnoxious amount of knots to weigh it down and lowered it down into the abyss. Did an okay job not getting tossed around in the wind and sat pretty perfectly at the next rap. Made the decision on the fly and it paid off. Im sure other situations call for it, but I wouldn't suggest it for standard practice. 

In 23 years of weekend warrior, I don’t recall a rappel where I or one of my partners knotted the rope ends together.  But I have seen coils develop more than once such that both ends intertwined and became maddeningly difficult to separate. I’ve also rapped to the next anchor station and found a rope end 15 feet below stuck in a crack.

If knots must be tied at the ends, suggest the following order, most preferred first:

1. Knot each separately on rappel when it is clearly visible that the next rap anchors are close to the rope ends

2. Knot each separately before rappel

3. Knot separately to harness in a way that the ropes can later be persuaded to stay separate

4. Knot the rope ends together

Love that we revived this thread

Thank you for sharing your stories, impressions and suggestions!! 

A different problem.:- When abseiling into sea-cliffs, tie both ends to a ropebag/rucksac and stuff the abseil rope into the sac to be pulled out as descending.

Why: To stop the rope going into the sea and getting wrapped around boulders underwater. :-(

Nigel Barrywrote:

A different problem.:- When abseiling into sea-cliffs, tie both ends to a ropebag/rucksac and stuff the abseil rope into the sac to be pulled out as descending.

Why: To stop the rope going into the sea and getting wrapped around boulders underwater. :-(

Speaking from experience?