Will Stanhope

@clinthelander, I don’t understand what was wrong the question on helmets. They help save lives. I also don’t understand why more pro climbers don’t wear them. The excuse I hear is, “there’s no chance of rock fall. “ He hit his head after falling. 

Carolyn Swrote:

I also don’t understand why more pro climbers don’t wear them. 

Its not a mystery - the no-helmet-look is better for pictures and marketing.

If BD/Petzl were smart they would allow athletes to make custom helmets that have a lot more character and are one-of-a-kind recognizable. 

Carolyn Swrote:

@clinthelander, I don’t understand what was wrong the question on helmets. They help save lives. I also don’t understand why more pro climbers don’t wear them. The excuse I hear is, “there’s no chance of rock fall. “ He hit his head after falling. 

Imagine a conversation about car safety features. You have seatbelts and you have chest harnesses. The chest harness by all metrics is far safer however it has such a diminished utility in making you safer that spending the extra money for a .01% improvement in safety might not be worth it.

If you think helmets make you twice as safe, it’s obvious that you should wear a helmet. If helmets only make you .1% safer, should you worry about it?

Pro climbers at their limit tend to climb steep things with fewer features, so they likely see minimal benefit from a helmet. Obviously this climb seems to have needed a helmet but I think the valuation of whether a helmet should be worn should be dictated by the climb and the style rather that the ubiquitous belief one should always wear a helmet.

If I’m climbing in a horizontal cave I don’t know how a helmet makes it safer. An offwidth it might be more dangerous. In a gym, I would hope the routes are set in a way that eliminates head trauma risk.

If we can’t accept some amount of risk we should be covered in styrofoam and exclusively top rope in the gym with a helmet on.

Edit: to phylp if one picture of one elite climber is a rebuttal to me, it’s also a rebuttal Carolyn’s statement that pro climbers don’t wear helmets lol

T Taylorwrote:

Pro climbers at their limit tend to climb steep things with fewer features, so they likely see minimal benefit from a helmet.

It's also reasonable to argue helmets aren't strictly required for most steep sport climbing and not using them promotes athlete recognition.

The above image of Connor is on a route current climbers would not consider "steep" and conking your head in a fall (especially at the start) is very real.

@phylp phylp: That image depicts one of the first examples that came to mind when reading that sentence.

I'd like to add that pro-climbers, when either climbing at their limit or faced with sparse pro available (on some high-end trad routes), also tend/have to run it out (or skip bolts) more than the average climber, and usually take much longer whippers. Regardless of how steep or featureless a route is, there's always the possibility of getting caught in the rope and flipping upside down, potentially hitting the wall with their head. That's where a helmet could make a significant difference between a mild concussion and severe head trauma. Any climber (pro or not) should be making a conscious decision about risk and their gear choices to mitigate it.

T Taylorwrote:

Imagine a conversation about car safety features. You have seatbelts and you have chest harnesses. The chest harness by all metrics is far safer however it has such a diminished utility in making you safer that spending the extra money for a .01% improvement in safety might not be worth it.

If you think helmets make you twice as safe, it’s obvious that you should wear a helmet. If helmets only make you .1% safer, should you worry about it?

Pro climbers at their limit tend to climb steep things with fewer features, so they likely see minimal benefit from a helmet. Obviously this climb seems to have needed a helmet but I think the valuation of whether a helmet should be worn should be dictated by the climb and the style rather that the ubiquitous belief one should always wear a helmet.

If I’m climbing in a horizontal cave I don’t know how a helmet makes it safer. An offwidth it might be more dangerous. In a gym, I would hope the routes are set in a way that eliminates head trauma risk.

If we can’t accept some amount of risk we should be covered in styrofoam and exclusively top rope in the gym with a helmet on.

Edit: to phylp if one picture of one elite climber is a rebuttal to me, it’s also a rebuttal Carolyn’s statement that pro climbers don’t wear helmets lol

Technically speaking, we should be wearing a helmet virtually everywhere there is a risk of a fatal head injury - which is often and almost everywhere. I should wear a helmet as I'm working in the back of the ambulance, technically. I should wear one walking up and down the stairs in the hospital, or crossing the parking lot, or sliding down the pole at the fire station. The benefits are factually indisputable - helmets work.

But the reality is that we, as humans, must choose when and where to trade convenience for an increased risk of fatal or highly disabling head injuries. Where we choose to draw that line should be a personal decision rather than one that should be decided collectively.

Personally, I almost always wear my helmet while climbing - but I don't wear one in the gym, for example. I am willing to bet that 99.9% of the people participating in the shaming rituals around helmets also don't wear one in the gym. In any case, while I personally almost always wear a helmet, I never shame people for not wearing a helmet. I even see their crushed skulls when I arrive on scene at work, and I work with them after they received their serious TBI and are severely disabled, which is traumatizing to me, and yet I still feel that it should be up to the individual to choose when they do or don't want a helmet - assuming they have the capacity to be aware of what helmets do, how they help, and what they are risking if they don't use one.

Freedom = freedom to choose = lack of nanny state or cancel culture to force you in to decisions that aren't yours to begin with.

In any case, critcizing people for taking risks is a very weird position to occupy as a climber, because there are plenty of folks who would follow that same train of logic to argue that we shouldn't be climbing at all in the first place... because it's unsafe. Which is technically true, sure, but those folks are also a bunch of nerds that should maybe go fuck themselves ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ (gently, kindly, and with lots of lube + self-love). 

Quite the product placement there with the Black Diamond logo right in the center of the photo.  Who is to say that wearing that helmet during filming of the video was not written into the sponsorship contract? And not just to promote the sale of Black Diamond helmets, but just to more prominently display their logo.

Full disclosure, I own a BD helmet (my third helmet in 33 years of almost always wearing a helmet whilst climbing).  The current brain bucket is about 14 years old and beat to hell, and this thread is a good reminder for me to start looking for a replacement.

while i didn't know will stanhope beyond a few youtube videos, his accident is quite relatable. 

i started wearing a helmet after stephen ross died on beverly's tower in the valley in 1997 (roughly nine years after i started climbing) - a good analysis of the accident by john dill can be found here: https://aac-publications.s3.amazonaws.com/documents/anam/1997/PDF/ANAM_1997_7_2_024.pdf

stephen and i were both students at cal when we first met on the south side food ghetto for lunch and a discussion of my first wall to be.  his enthusiasm for all things climbing was bigger than most other things in life, like for so many of us.

a few years later, i attended stephen's memorial service.  there were a couple of hundred people in attendance and while it was supposed to be a celebration of life, the harsh reality of a young and promising life lost, the tears, sobs, and cries made a strong impression on many of us.  

it was pretty obvious, that a helmet would have made a differrence in his case.  yes, a helmet may not protect me that one time in the future, but in almost thirty years of wearing one since stephen's death it has been the right decision with no regrets... 

grug gwrote:

Its not a mystery - the no-helmet-look is better for pictures and marketing.

If BD/Petzl were smart they would allow athletes to make custom helmets that have a lot more character and are one-of-a-kind recognizable. 

Much like goalies in hockey. Of course a lighter design....

bob steedwrote:

Quite the product placement there with the Black Diamond logo right in the center of the photo.  Who is to say that wearing that helmet during filming of the video was not written into the sponsorship contract? And not just to promote the sale of Black Diamond helmets, but just to more prominently display their logo.

Full disclosure, I own a BD helmet (my third helmet in 33 years of almost always wearing a helmet whilst climbing).  The current brain bucket is about 14 years old and beat to hell, and this thread is a good reminder for me to start looking for a replacement.

Replacement after 5 yrs use is a general benchmark.

I am certain after 50+ years of climbing and falls I would not be writing this today had I not worn a helmet.

Trad Dogwrote:

Technically speaking, we should be wearing a helmet virtually everywhere there is a risk of a fatal head injury - which is often and almost everywhere. I should wear a helmet as I'm working in the back of the ambulance, technically. I should wear one walking up and down the stairs in the hospital, or crossing the parking lot, or sliding down the pole at the fire station. The benefits are factually indisputable - helmets work.

But the reality is that we, as humans, must choose when and where to trade convenience for an increased risk of fatal or highly disabling head injuries. Where we choose to draw that line should be a personal decision rather than one that should be decided collectively.

Personally, I almost always wear my helmet while climbing - but I don't wear one in the gym, for example. I am willing to bet that 99.9% of the people participating in the shaming rituals around helmets also don't wear one in the gym. In any case, while I personally almost always wear a helmet, I never shame people for not wearing a helmet. I even see their crushed skulls when I arrive on scene at work, and I work with them after they received their serious TBI and are severely disabled, which is traumatizing to me, and yet I still feel that it should be up to the individual to choose when they do or don't want a helmet - assuming they have the capacity to be aware of what helmets do, how they help, and what they are risking if they don't use one.

Freedom = freedom to choose = lack of nanny state or cancel culture to force you in to decisions that aren't yours to begin with.

In any case, critcizing people for taking risks is a very weird position to occupy as a climber, because there are plenty of folks who would follow that same train of logic to argue that we shouldn't be climbing at all in the first place... because it's unsafe. Which is technically true, sure, but those folks are also a bunch of nerds that should maybe go fuck themselves ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ (gently, kindly, and with lots of lube + self-love). 

Is there some situation where we can be critical of decisions to wear safety equipment? Or should autonomy keep people immune?

T Taylorwrote:

Is there some situation where we can be critical of decisions to wear safety equipment? Or should autonomy keep people immune?

I mean, I'm no saint - so I'll make a snarky comment here and there if I see somebody not wearing a helmet while climbing ice in the alpine - but that is a straight up insane thing to do since you get hit with falling rocks and ice all the time in that setting. 

But everywhere else it's honestly such a grey zone in my honest opinion. Maybe I'm overthinking it, but the logic is about criticizing people taking unnecessary risks, so - for example, which of these scenarios are unnecessary risks?

a) Climbing A5 in yosemite with a helmet

b) Not wearing a helmet while climbing Squamish granite

c) Not wearing a helmet while bouldering

d) Wearing a helmet but you're highball bouldering

e) Riding your bike with a helmet but in city traffic

f) Doing gymnastics without a helmet

g) Figure skating without a helmet

h) Getting shot out of a human cannon but you are wearing a helmet

i) Climbing at the gym without a helmet

Okay, which of these scenarios deserves criticism and condemnation for being unnecessarily risking your life? Is the key criteria the danger involved, or is it the presence of absence of a helmet that we are looking for? Where and how should we or should we not grab our pitchforks?

Personally, I don't know or care to know. My view is it's up to the individual to decide if they want to protect their head or not based on the situation at hand as they see fit, and we shouldn't bully people for having OR not having a helmet on. Both options are quite obnoxious and imposing in my opinion. 

The only times I think such mandates are acceptable is in a formal organized sport/job where the safety apparel is codified.

Is there some situation where we can be critical of decisions to wear safety equipment?

Who you preaching at, hoss?

Trad Dogwrote:

c) Not wearing a helmet while bouldering

d) Wearing a helmet but you're highball bouldering

i) Climbing at the gym without a helmet

From - https://www.climbing.com/culture-climbing/yes-climbers-should-wear-helmets/ 

Virtually no one boulders with a helmet, despite the frequent bruising falls many boulderers take. One who does is the father of the bouldering V-grade and author of the Hueco Tanks guidebook, John “Verm” Sherman, who has had multiple concussions and now sports a helmet on highballs and even some butt-draggers. In a column at dpmclimbing.com, Sherman wrote, “These days, if I can’t find a legitimate reason not to wear a helmet, I wear one. Which is 98 percent of the time.”

You can also find rare instances of people climbing indoors with a helmet. Mark Dixon, 55, is an emergency room doctor in Loveland, Colorado, and a 5.12 leader, and every time he ties in to lead a route at the Boulder Rock Club, he also straps on his helmet. “I started wearing a helmet in the gym about a year ago,” he says. “I was taking a lot of falls, and twice in a week flipped upside down and whacked my head. It was nothing serious, but I thought, ‘This is stupid—I wear a helmet biking, climbing outdoors, and caving; why not wear one here, too?'”

Lots of great points. I wear my helmet almost always. while I agree with everyone's freedom to choose, it is unfortunate that we incidentally influence younger/ignorant climbers and people who haven't actually processed and mentally accepted the risk they are undertaking. Essentially darwinism. Anyways, just be conscious of who is around you and maybe have a discussion with them if they seem unsure about making a poor decision. Be kind and thoughtful out there.

Trad Dogwrote:

But everywhere else it's honestly such a grey zone in my honest opinion. Maybe I'm overthinking it, but the logic is about criticizing people taking unnecessary risks, so - for example, which of these scenarios are unnecessary risks?

a) Climbing A5 in yosemite with a helmet

b) Not wearing a helmet while climbing Squamish granite

c) Not wearing a helmet while bouldering

d) Wearing a helmet but you're highball bouldering

e) Riding your bike with a helmet but in city traffic

f) Doing gymnastics without a helmet

g) Figure skating without a helmet

h) Getting shot out of a human cannon but you are wearing a helmet

i) Climbing at the gym without a helmet

Okay, which of these scenarios deserves criticism and condemnation for being unnecessarily risking your life? Is the key criteria the danger involved, or is it the presence of absence of a helmet that we are looking for? Where and how should we or should we not grab our pitchforks?

Personally, I don't know or care to know. My view is it's up to the individual to decide if they want to protect their head or not based on the situation at hand as they see fit, and we shouldn't bully people for having OR not having a helmet on. Both options are quite obnoxious and imposing in my opinion. 

The only times I think such mandates are acceptable is in a formal organized sport/job where the safety apparel is codified.

j) Free soloing with a helmet

Trad Dogwrote:

..... I'll make a snarky comment here and there if I see somebody not wearing a helmet ....

....My view is it's up to the individual to decide if they want to protect their head or not based on the situation at hand as they see fit, and we shouldn't bully people for having OR not having a helmet on....

lol

Jake wanderwrote:

lol

Seriously...