New and Experienced Climbers over 50 #42

Is this some weird kind of boomer nostalgia

Why you gotta be like that?

I have gone back and fixed most of my fuck ups  on my FA's.   John Psyco Sykes  retroed a bunch of his old climbs. Its the cool thing to do these days.  One of my favorite stories was when some of the North Carolina locals  heard someone up on the cliff with a  ryobi gas powered power drill.  They went ballistic and vandalized the drillers gas can and yelled up at the offending climber. "Arnie is going to kick your ass when he finds out about this"  Turns out the guy with the power drill was in fact Arnie..... 

But just to add a small layer onto what we have been discussing here, a friend of mine weighed in on the subject this morning… “Remember, those early climbers never intended to repeat a route. They just brought the minimum gear needed to make it to the top one time. They were not thinking about creating classic masterpieces for future generations. Whereas these days we are thinking about all the climbers we hope will visit our route and we put a lot of time into placement of bolts and potential falls,

Sounds like utter bullshit to me

its actually very true. In the old days we wanted to get up the route as cheaply as possible. We also did not want other climbers to think we were wimps so we tended to make sure there was some scary  parts to the climb. These days many first ascensionists try to leave behind a climb that is aesthetic, climbs well, is protected in the right places but still exciting and hope that folks will enjoy this contribution to the area.   Personally when I do a ground up FA I go back and move  bolts if needed or add  bolts untill it climbs the way I feel is as close to a masterpiece as possible. Then I report the climb. It is not finished untill it's perfect. The goal is for this to be my favorite climb rather than a total scarefest that I never want to touch again but will be tickled pink wherever someone bails or askes me to add bolts to it while I scorch them for being light weight. 

As with many activities in life, I think there were a wide, wide mix of thoughts, ideas and motivations for those putting routes up during the time period we're talking about. Perhaps as many motivations as there were climbers?

Unquestionably some were establishing climbs that they hoped would last and become popular. Especially when the FA was a gorgeous or very obvious line.

Others? Others were just climbing, doing what they felt like doing with not much consideration for what would come in later years. On this latter point, I wrote this into the history section of the Pinnacles guidebook (based on the comments of a friend of mine who started climbing there before I did):

"According to John, bolting gear was hard to acquire during these years, and ¼ inch bolts were not only readily available, they were also easy to place.  As a result, they often ended up being used to protect easier sections of climbs.  Well aware that climbers now consider ¼ inch bolts at Pinnacles unsafe at best, Barbella commented: “Back then, we just had fun climbing.  We didn’t think anyone would ever be on these routes in 20 years.”

EDIT: one of my favorite Pinnacles stories comes from this climber. In later years, when his very strong daughter began visiting Pinnacles, she asked him for advice about climbing there (he'd moved away from the place 20 years earlier). His only comment was: "yeah, don't climb my routes."

philip bonewrote:

The line between sport and trad can be blurry. Also, hybrid routes are quite common. The distinction between retro-bolting and rebolting is clearer. Not everyone agrees with, or abides by, the first ascent ethic, around here at least. I'm told permits for new bolts in J Tree are not being issued. I wonder if the scale of Yosemite makes maverick actions less obvious? It would be interesting to hear from the Gunks contingent. 

Nobody is getting away with any maverick behavior at the Gunks for sure if that's the question. The trad routes there are so abundant and good that you almost never hear anyone wishing for more bolted protection. 

Trad is a term in common usage. What it means is blurry when combined with sport tactics. More than a couple of routes that I established have been retro-bolted w/o my ok.

I miss the Gunks guys in the conversation.

WF WF51wrote:

It would be interesting to hear from the Gunks contingent. 

What would you like to know? 

I wanna know

Have you ever seen the rain

Coming down on a sunny day

When I was working on the California Needles guidebook that Kevin Daniels published in 2016, I reached out to many of the area's pioneers looking for stories, attitudes, ideas about ethics, generally what made them tick. I got back lots of great stuff. Bonnie Kamps even gave me excerpts from her late husbands wonderful journals. I used his pages documenting the FA of Spook Book in the guide.

I think this quote from Roy McClenahan is gold. Liquid Sky was a visionary route. I say "was" because in about 2018 an individual saw fit to retro-bolt it. In this person's opinion the belays were not in the right locations, so without having the vision to see why Lechlinski and crew pushed that first belay up as high as they could, he removed said belay and moved it down lower to a more comfortable spot. Then he had to add a new belay halfway across the magnificent sweeping expanse of rock with a real crux out at the pitch's end. Lechlinski's interpretation of the route, with a long soaring uninterrupted second pitch, depended on the first belay being high up above the convenient ledges. In a day when climbers are doing ever longer pitches and linkups, someone saw fit to cut down a climb that was ahead of its time into bite sized pieces. 

Anyway, here are Roy's words about the climb, and the focus of their bold style, written several years before the climb was defaced:

" In early summer of 1983 Mike Lechlinski and I stood beneath Magician's unclimbed west face. Waiting silently overhead was his proposed project: Liquid Sky. This was just two years after the historic first ascent of the Bachar Yerian in Tuolumne Meadows. Liquid Sky kicked off Mike’s bold string of visionary first ascents here in The Needles. It followed a hanging path of crescent shaped depressions and reared three rope lengths above. We saw that it would sometimes be too steep to let go of the rock for drilling from natural stances. We would take tension from hooks placed over small edges while we leaned back to drill just as Bachar had on his route. Before traversing rightward on the second pitch I initiated this approach and punched in the second bolt. So this climb took a lot of work spread over a few days’ effort on lead. It was the dawn of the sticky rubber revolution; our shoes were some of the first Boreal Fires to arrive in the United States. Despite their dramatic advantages the crux 5.11 friction traverse seemed impossible in the afternoon sun. Success came only during the stickier conditions of morning shade. Liquid Sky was a movie which depicted some very strange goings-on when aliens arrived in the New York art world.

In creating our routes we were drawing much from the examples and accomplishments of Robbins, Higgins, and Kamps, likewise hoping to emulate and contribute to a minimalist ethic where bolting was concerned.  We were not setting out to make dangerous climbs; rather we were putting our best collective foot forward in the service of a respected tradition."

I've enjoyed the bolting discussion discussion.  I've put up a number of slab routes ground up over the years and been back to many of them to add bolts now that I'm old and have a power drill (I would never add bolts to others routes without permission, which I have done).  Most of them got retro bolted on lead but I did retro a few on rappel.  My feeling about rap bolting is that if you do it you better place plenty of bolts and put them in not stupid places and if you fuck up you should return and fix it.

apogeewrote:

The recent Enormocast/Taps (Last Rites) episode threw out the idea of tossing out the distinctions of 'trad' vs 'sport' climbing at this point in the evolution of the sport (or whatever you wanna call it), and now there's just 'rock climbing'. I understand the rationale for that argument, but I do think the distinctions are still useful (likewise, wish there was a better word for 'trad'...this is stooopid). Of course, they were ranting under heavy influence of scotch, and they are from Colorado. Jes' sayin'.

Edit:

Here comes the bloviation…

To quote GWB on another Trump speech "That was some weird shit". 

philip bonewrote:

I miss the Gunks guys in the conversation.

Yeah, whatever happened to those Gunks guys?   

Kristian Solemwrote:

...
I think this quote from Roy McClenahan is gold. Liquid Sky was a visionary route. I say "was" because in about 2018 an individual saw fit to retro-bolt it. In this person's opinion the belays were not in the right locations, so without having the vision to see why Lechlinski and crew pushed that first belay up as high as they could, he removed said belay and moved it down lower to a more comfortable spot. Then he had to add a new belay halfway across the magnificent sweeping expanse of rock with a real crux out at the pitch's end. Lechlinski's interpretation of the route, with a long soaring uninterrupted second pitch, depended on the first belay being high up above the convenient ledges. In a day when climbers are doing ever longer pitches and linkups, someone saw fit to cut down a climb that was ahead of its time into bite sized pieces. 

Anyway, here are Roy's words about the climb, and the focus of their bold style, written several years before the climb was defaced:

" In early summer of 1983 Mike Lechlinski and I stood beneath Magician's unclimbed west face. Waiting silently overhead was his proposed project: Liquid Sky. This was just two years after the historic first ascent of the Bachar Yerian in Tuolumne Meadows. Liquid Sky kicked off Mike’s bold string of visionary first ascents here in The Needles. It followed a hanging path of crescent shaped depressions and reared three rope lengths above. We saw that it would sometimes be too steep to let go of the rock for drilling from natural stances. We would take tension from hooks placed over small edges while we leaned back to drill just as Bachar had on his route. Before traversing rightward on the second pitch I initiated this approach and punched in the second bolt. So this climb took a lot of work spread over a few days’ effort on lead. It was the dawn of the sticky rubber revolution; our shoes were some of the first Boreal Fires to arrive in the United States. Despite their dramatic advantages the crux 5.11 friction traverse seemed impossible in the afternoon sun. Success came only during the stickier conditions of morning shade. Liquid Sky was a movie which depicted some very strange goings-on when aliens arrived in the New York art world.

In creating our routes we were drawing much from the examples and accomplishments of Robbins, Higgins, and Kamps, likewise hoping to emulate and contribute to a minimalist ethic where bolting was concerned.  We were not setting out to make dangerous climbs; rather we were putting our best collective foot forward in the service of a respected tradition."

So what will be the long term outcome for that route?

Permits for bolting in Joshua Tree are not being issued or at least are a very long time in coming and you can thank the Trump administration for that. You'll recall that the new administration imposed a federal hiring freeze on Feb. 20, 2025. That hiring freeze remains in place.

In JT, a permit is required for placing a new bolt, maintaining an old bolt, or removing a bolt - i.e. you need a permit for all things bolt related. The process of issuing a permit requires environmental review by Cultural Resources, Wildlife, Vegetation for impact to these resources.

The Branch Chiefs for all three of these resources retired or left NPS prior to or within a year of Trump 2. Because of the hiring freeze, it took over a year to fill the veg vacancy, and the Wildlife and Cultural positions are currently vacant. Because of Trump, there's no one there to complete the environmental review. So no permits.

And Philip, I'm really sorry for adding bolts to your routes without your permission, but Lori made me do it. :)

Anyone else listen to this episode of The Climbing Majority podcast?  Apropos to the bolting discussion, Bob G. talks about the past and current state of bolting in JTree. (At about 01:16:00 timestamp)

https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/www.buzzsprout.com/1902269/episodes/17097955-92-an-untold-life-w-bob-gaines.mp3

Rich Rosswrote:

Yeah, whatever happened to those Gunks guys?   

I saw Ivan not too long ago.

tom donnellywrote:

So what will be the long term outcome for that route?

Not long after I heard about his actions I had some talks with the culprit. So did others who have lots of footprints in that area. The understanding was that he was going to restore the climb to it's original form, but it never happened. I'm up in Wyoming now, so no longer local to those crags. Also, I am 72. Although I feel splendid for my age and many take me for younger, I don't think restoring Liquid Sky is a job for me. If someone who has the skills to do a clean job of it takes an interest I'd chip in for materials, and I can provide specific beta including photo's showing where each original bolt was located.

Edit for Tim K. I hit my post limit. See you tomorrow at some point   .

Tim K wrote:

Guy, I'm a stickler for semantics. I certainly wouldn't say your previous statement was a lie, but it's certainly not true.

Experience with what? What is "IT?" Trad climbing? Life?

are you asking what's my experience with mentoring gym climbers/boulderers? Are you implying I don't mentor?

Edit: And Kristian, Lori's friends assessment is certainly not total hogwash, some of the FA in JT BITD amounted to little more than dick jousting with almost complete disregard to future climbers...and that's fine. Brad summed up the ethos around retro bolting perfectly.

I normally try to avoid discussions about climbing ethics but I was told pretty much the same thing by someone who put up some bold lines here in NC. They didn't say "dick jousting" (interesting imagery there!) but just that they were a bunch of young guys trying to show each other up.

That being said I don't have a problem with the existence of such lines and have led a number of them --once--. People climb for different reasons and there's room for both safe well protected lines and bold testpieces. That's for ground up ascents though. I feel differently about people rap bolting badly protected lines which is something I've also seen.

Gosh I appreciate everyone who has posted their thoughts to this thread.  It has added to the total understanding about “bitd” and a history that is rapidly being lost. I love the stories.

Cherokee, your words made me sad. Time is moving on and this is soon over.  I haven’t quite figured out how to celebrate a great past, but remain present and move forward.

Maybe I have a special perspective because a lot of the glow has probably faded for people like Bob (and maybe not, I haven’t asked). But I get pretty excited over so many routes here in this park and observing history from little traces. Can’t help but wonder what was going on that day when this route went up – – were those guys friends, was this hard, was there much buzz, what gear did they have? What shoes?

A route I am most excited about is Torturers Apprentice. It’s on a beautiful massive wall that I think of as the surface of the moon.  Charles Cole was in on this one. Charles was also involved on the route next to it, Gun Shy.  It’s astonishing the lack of bolting on the first half of the route.  Way to my right on this same wall is Randy’s The Compassion of the Elephants. Bob did the FA on Groundhogs Day and several others. So that entire wall was built out by incredible climbers. But I’ve never seen a soul there.

(Me waving from the top, this was a big accomplishment) 

I feel wistful about it, and Cherokee is right. Can’t hang onto it even though I would try.

—

Just a little update – – I saw the PRP doctor yesterday. This is the orthopedist I was referred to who does PRP for Kaiser. I have previously seen three or four different doctors about my very painful knees and had MRIs and x-rays of both knees over the last three years since the injury. The doctor I saw in February assured me that I have arthritis in my knees and that’s the problem. “There’s not much you can do about this.”  

So the orthopedist I saw yesterday was totally confused, telling me that I have no arthritis in any knee after he pulled up all 20 x-rays and said “just look here, you don’t have arthritis.  What you have is a torn meniscus that needs surgery.”  And that’s been clear from the beginning.

I told him that I had been advised that no orthopedic surgeon would perform knee surgery on a 72-year-old woman. The doctor almost shouted “you’re not 72! For the purposes of surgery, you are a healthy, athletic woman.”

We discussed a Plan B, which is a shot of Cortisone and physical therapy— and a video consult with the meniscus surgeon to see what he thinks.

So once again, I truly believe the misdiagnosis have come from seeing that number “72“ and making the assumptions that go with it, that I could only have arthritis.

As far as PRP goes, he was very honest and said of the many PRP treatments he has given he rarely sees a true improvement. He doesn’t advise it but if I really wanted it, it is an option. 

Snippet of my week.

3-29-2026 Nearly got one 5.12c and the blue one should be possible. Will try to lead those in a month…

3-30-2026 migrated to 30mm at 125 pounds 5 counts. 20 reps total broken into 5 sets of 4

3-31-2026 hoped to top out one of the two 5.12c… plan didn’t work… two moves after the rest was hard. Blue one was thin slippers up top. Going to take time.

4-1-2026 plan to hit 25mm and 20mm test how much with open hand. Bodyweight open hand grip is possible now. Plus 140 on 30mm 3 sets of 4 5-7 second holds progressed from 1 set at 70 then 1 set at 120 finally 3 sets at 140. Plus 150-160 should be possible at 30mm.

Following a 4 week plan to drop to 25mm edges