Crags with low traffic during high gas prices

abe rwrote:

This lack of giving a f**k is why the earth is royally doomed, at least with us around. You might start caring once your life is actually affected.

Limiting consumption is the only way to combat our adverse affects on Earth and this nonchalant, lets note how unhealthy weather patterns are becoming the norm (including winter, or lack thereof) and not doing a damn thing about it will hopefully be our demise.

I think coming onto a climbing forum to blame individuals for driving places rather than getting corporations to change their mass-affecting, globally significant policies is a waste of time, or maybe a self-serving one where you get to feel like you are yelling at someone.

Wasn't the the whole 'carbon footprint' thing debunked a while ago as a way for massively affecting corps to get us to worry about our own (grain of sand in a desert) level of consumption versus theirs?

Let's give a fuck about these international entities eroding our rights and ruining our home. Getting political here, but we need a government that serves its people - which would include regulating massive entities that are degrading our resources, and stepping in and regulating/curtailing foreign interests snapping up so much real estate that our citizens can't afford rent, protecting us from data mining by corps --remember when the fbi needed a warrant to see your checked out library books? And now every tech company knows what gets you off and how long it takes and when you usually do it, besides thousands of other things about your personal life and habits, and they all sell that info to each other. Our privacy matters, and it's worth billions -- Corps arent people, people are people, and we need our government to protect and serve its people, not its corporations. //endrant

Sail Sevenwrote:

I think coming onto a climbing forum to blame individuals for driving places rather than getting corporations to change their mass-affecting, globally significant policies is a waste of time, or maybe a self-serving one where you get to feel like you are yelling at someone.

Wasn't the the whole 'carbon footprint' thing debunked a while ago as a way for massively affecting corps to get us to worry about our own (grain of sand in a desert) level of consumption versus theirs?

Let's give a fuck about these international entities eroding our rights and ruining our home. Getting political here, but we need a government that serves its people - which would include regulating massive entities that are degrading our resources, and stepping in and regulating/curtailing foreign interests snapping up so much real estate that our citizens can't afford rent, protecting us from data mining by corps --remember when the fbi needed a warrant to see your checked out library books? And now every tech company knows what gets you off and how long it takes and when you usually do it, besides thousands of other things about your personal life and habits, and they all sell that info to each other. Our privacy matters, and it's worth billions -- Corps arent people, people are people, and we need our government to protect and serve its people, not its corporations. //endrant

What came first, the consumer or the corporation? 

apogeewrote:

Wow. An impressive level of naivete, right there.

Edit to below: Followed by an impressive level of divisive, broad generalization clearly based in ignorance and lack of life experience. Kudos. (Now deleted. Thank you.)

Jay Crewwrote:

I'd hate to see prices in Lee Vining or Bridgeport CA right now..$7 I bet

just drove through yesterday. It's in the 7's in LV.

Daniel Shivelywrote:

What came first, the consumer or the corporation? 

Which has the ability to implement large scale policy?

Which uses the commodities that generate the revenue?

Calebwrote:

Which has the ability to implement large scale policy?

Everyone. I know that you disagree, but the power always rests with the populace. See history for proof of concept. India, inspired by Gandhi, stands out as a modern example. 

It amazes how many rightfully blame corrupt government, but then clamor for more government to save them. Lol 

ps. Implementation of anything requires participation. For example, only 2% of Canadiens have complied with the authoritarian firearm measures that their corrupt government is attempting to implement. 

Daniel Shivelywrote:

Everyone. I know that you disagree, but the power always rests with the populace. See history for proof of concept. India, inspired by Gandhi, stands out as a modern example. 

It amazes how many rightfully blame corrupt government, but then clamor for more government to save them. Lol 

ps. Implementation of anything requires participation. For example, only 2% of Canadiens have complied with the authoritarian firearm measures that their corrupt government is attempting to implement. 

I don’t think we’re talking about the same thing.  A large corporation can deforest a county or put an entire city out of work with a single email.  You or I can’t do that.

That’s not to say that the individual should abdicate responsibility.  Each person must consider their actions more deeply than immediate personal desires. Questioning our compliance is an important part of that.

Calebwrote:

I don’t think we’re talking about the same thing.  A large corporation can deforest a county or put an entire city out of work with a single email.  You or I can’t do that.

That’s not to say that the individual should abdicate responsibility.  Each person must consider their actions more deeply than immediate personal desires. Questioning our compliance is an important part of that.

A corporation doesn’t utilize resources to deforest a county unless there is a demand created by the consumer that purchases the product. If all of the individual you or I’s don’t buy shit that we don’t think is in our best interest, the demand vanishes and the corporation is out of business, and then they send the email and puts the city out of work. Lol  Do you honestly think that corporations bring products to market without there being a demand for their product? Why did stores that rented VHS movies go out of business? Should those stores been compelled to remain in business to avoid the lost jobs?

I’m not comfortable expecting anything from other people or making claims about “what they must consider.” Freedom is complicated. 

Would you prefer a command economy? 

Daniel Shivelywrote:

A corporation doesn’t utilize resources to deforest a county unless there is a demand created by the consumer that purchases the product. If all of the individual you or I’s don’t buy shit that we don’t think is in our best interest, the demand vanishes and the corporation is out of business. Do you honestly think that corporations bring products to market without there being a demand for their product? Why did stores that rented VHS movies go out of business? Should those stores been compelled to remain in business to avoid the lost jobs?

I’m not comfortable expecting anything from other people or making claims about “what they must consider.” Freedom is complicated.

If I hire someone to commit a murder is the hired killer simply meeting a market demand?  

Yes, companies drive demand through a variety of mechanisms to sell existing products.  Marketing and designed obsolescence are prime examples.

We aren’t talking about VHS rental companies.  We’re talking about businesses so large they dominate whole industries.  Should they have no controls on pollution or extraction?  Should they be able to outsource manufacturing?  

It’s not necessarily bad to have expectations of other people. Two of mine are a medium degree of open mindedness and consistent morality.  Freedom, while very important, is not the only element of life.

I admire both Daniel and Caleb. They're having a complex conversation on the internet and... keeping it civil and making good points/raising good ideas.

On the internet. Unheard of.

Very nice.

In my simple view, the fact that you're each making good points confirms that these are extremely complex issues with no clear "black and white" answers.

Calebwrote:

If I hire someone to commit a murder is the hired killer simply meeting a market demand?  

Yes, companies drive demand through a variety of mechanisms to sell existing products.  Marketing and designed obsolescence are prime examples.

We aren’t talking about VHS rental companies.  We’re talking about businesses so large they dominate whole industries.  Should they have no controls on pollution or extraction?  Should they be able to outsource manufacturing?  

It’s not necessarily bad to have expectations of other people. Two of mine are a medium degree of open mindedness and consistent morality.  Freedom, while very important, is not the only element of life.

If the moral/ethical authority doesn’t rest with the consumer/populace, where does it come from?  Are we back to your ideas that humans don’t possess agency to make choices? How did CEO’s decide to become CEO’s?   To me it seems simple, I live an examined and extremely minimalist existence, this works for me. Unfortunately, many (most) seem to prefer the stuff that the industry dominating corporations provide for them. They also seem to accept the role that government plays in preserving this system. Who am I to determine how everyone should live?

If you truly believe in “consistent morality,” isn’t everyone responsible for the choices they make and what they consume? The world exists as it is due to the choices of its inhabitants. 

If it all comes crashing down, I’ll do what I can to protect what I love. 

Brad Youngwrote:

I admire both Daniel and Caleb. They're having a complex conversation on the internet and... keeping it civil and making good points/raising good ideas.

On the internet. Unheard of.

Very nice.

In my simple view, the fact that you're each making good points confirms that these are extremely complex issues with no clear "black and white" answers.

Thanks Brad, I appreciate your many contributions too. The diversity of humanity is the spice of life and the engine of complexity. 

I’m setting this aside now and will remind visitors to the eastside that fuel is less expensive at Paiute Tribe owned facilities. 

Climbing is Fun! Cheers!

Lol! We all "vote" with our dollars, so pick and choose, when you have the opportunity.

I choose to drive on climbing trips, now and then, and, I am then not just doing something I love, but also gifting a climbing trip to my climbing partner. We are also supporting the very small businesses in the tiny town we go to. When I used to pay for lodging in the state park, that money directly supported the climbing area.

Day to day, there's lots of small things one can do. Does it change the big picture? Maybe. Maybe not. But it can change the small one.

For starters, pay cash at small businesses. That, is a direct choice between the bottom line for that business, or the megagiant credit system.

Don't pay taxes. Okay, yeah you do hafta pay taxes eventually. But if you regularly get a refund, adjust your withholding. Set some into savings instead of "loaning" it to the feds every payday.

One of my tiny small things, is that I was a gardener. I got interested in the missing piece of growing, and learned how to save seeds. One of the seeds I saved in a backyard plot was from a guy in New York state, who was quitting. So I took over his seed.

I ended up being one of the last growers of that seed in the country, Oneida white flour corn. Makes terrific hominy!

Which has since been turned over to the actual Oneida nation, now located in Wisconsin, and is grown on the farm where they also have buffalo.

Other saved seeds got traded around, and eventually s tiny group of locals were swapping our now local seeds. One of those locals, kept it going, growing not just seeds, but what is now a regional seed company. That, is a direct alternative to buying seeds from the tiny handful of extremely huge multinationals that control almost ALL of the world's seeds. No seeds, no foods.

Climbing is an utterly pointless pursuit, but, it has one powerful saving grace.

Community. 

That's worth burning up some gas money, for me, anyway. Besides, it also helps keep me put of the monolithic "health" care system. Don't get me started....

Best all, Helen

Thanks, Abe, for the great pot stir!

What if gasoline hits $10, will that cause anyone to alter their weekend or summer plans? What if fuel stays high, would that cause some to move closer to the rocks? 

I've been through high gas prices before, lines at the pumps, various weirdnesses. You just address shit as it comes, sort the options, and deal with it. Or not.

I'd guess, rather than drop trips, it might make sense to stay longer....or not, lol!

Helen

It feels odd that no-one has yet posted about how they're immune to these issues because they have an EV? Or did I miss a post somewhere?

Jay Crewwrote:

What if fuel stays high, would that cause some to move closer to the rocks? 

Sounds like a reasonable strategy. Just as long as it isn’t closer to my rocks.

Jay Crewwrote:

What if gasoline hits $10, will that cause anyone to alter their weekend or summer plans? What if fuel stays high, would that cause some to move closer to the rocks? 

$10/gallon = major economic downturn, so I would expect a strong chilling affect on vacations.

That could lead to devaluation of housing near climbing destinations in places like Estes Park or Custer, but that usually takes a year or more.  And climbers aren’t immune to economic stresses that make climbing destinations undesirable for living (long commutes, less access to amenities, poor quality housing, higher cost of living).

I could see more people moving closer to gyms.  Climbing gyms are often in areas where land prices are relatively lower and it’s not uncommon to see dense, slightly more affordable housing nearby.  Couple with that  with convenience, ease of pedestrian access, no weather concerns, and rental cycles stimulating regular relocation.  

Brad Youngwrote:

It feels odd that no-one has yet posted about how they're immune to these issues because they have an EV? Or did I miss a post somewhere?

They're too busy driving to their favorite crag to post.