Trad/sport and crack/face grading disparities

Sometimes I'll be developing a mixed route with face holds and intermittent cracks that is mainly gear, perhaps 1 to 3 bolts, so in my head it's more of a trad route than a sport route. 

Because I think of it as a trad/crack route, I'll compare it to trad/crack routes and give it let's say a 5.9, thinking of all the hard 5.9 trad/crack pitches I've done. But as a thought experiment I'll pretend I'd bolted the entire route, so I compare it to sport/face routes and realize sport climbers would consider it a 5.10a or 5.10b. I find it funny/ironic that if I bolted the entire route it would get a harder grade, but by keeping it mainly gear protected it gets a lower grade. 

This is why being a solid 10a crack climber is arguably harder than being a solid 11a sport climber :)

bryanswrote:

This is why being a solid 10a crack climber is arguably harder than being a solid 11a sport climber :)

I don’t think that’s even the slightest bit arguable.

Does face climbing just feel easier to most climbers since it is more readily practiced in climbing gyms? 

I certainly have more mileage pulling on face holds than jams.

Camdon Kaywrote:

Does face climbing just feel easier to most climbers since it is more readily practiced in climbing gyms? 

I certainly have more mileage pulling on face holds than jams.

Single data point:

my vertical mileage on trad (not always cracks) outstretches my gym and sport mileage by a long shot. I barely ever sport climb (not trying to brag, it's a bad thing). My gym membership has been very intermittent.

I find these grades to feel very roughly equivalent: 

11b sport ~= 11a trad cracks ~= 10b trad face (my limit when Im in good shape)

10a sport ~ 5.9 trad cracks ~= 5.8 trad face (cruiser) 

Point being, even for a climber as trad-dominant as me, sport grades are still easier. 

apogeewrote:

I don’t think that’s even the slightest bit arguable.

...but plenty of new "11a climbers" would love to argue that!

25 years ago I set a goal to remain fit enough to be able to show up at a destination crag and lead the classic 10a trad and 11a sport routes. Sounds like I'm shooting too low with 11a :)

bryanswrote:

Sometimes I'll be developing a mixed route with face holds and intermittent cracks that is mainly gear, perhaps 1 to 3 bolts, so in my head it's more of a trad route than a sport route. 

Because I think of it as a trad/crack route, I'll compare it to trad/crack routes and give it let's say a 5.9, thinking of all the hard 5.9 trad/crack pitches I've done. But as a thought experiment I'll pretend I'd bolted the entire route, so I compare it to sport/face routes and realize sport climbers would consider it a 5.10a or 5.10b. I find it funny/ironic that if I bolted the entire route it would get a harder grade, but by keeping it mainly gear protected it gets a lower grade. 

This is why being a solid 10a crack climber is arguably harder than being a solid 11a sport climber :)

  Mixed route   

  Thought experiment   

  Adding bolts makes the rating harder       

Cherokee Nuneswrote:

  Mixed route   

  Thought experiment   

  Adding bolts makes the rating harder       

I'm saying adding bolts creates a perception that a route should get a harder grade (because sport grades are inflated - see above) - even though if that same route was fully bolted it would be physically easier to lead. Both things are true. And ironic.

So in a multiverse where climbers stumble onto this anonymous route with just 1 bolt, they will call it a 5.9 crack with a bolt, but in the other world where I bolt the whole thing, they will call it a 5.10a or 5.10b where someone bolted near a few gear placements on a face. 

This is what goes through my head when me and my partners try to rate our trad/sport/mixed lines in the vacuum of our obscure crags. Of course none of it reallly matters, it's just something to discourse on.

#BoltIndianCreek

I think this depends highly on the area. To give a local example to me, in Eldorado Canyon the bolted routes feel pretty stout for the grade (try The Web or Your Mother, for instance), whereas I think trad pitches can feel pretty on par at the grade - certainly not a number grade different. Meanwhile, just down the road in Boulder Canyon, Country Club Crack is probably harder than half the 12a sport routes in the canyon. 

Then you go to a place like the VRG or Rifle, and I promise you 11b will kick your ass unless you're super used to the style and have tons of mileage – far more so than a 5.11 sandstone splitter, for example. My two cents and not a universal take, I'm sure, but this whole discussion feels like it will vary entirely based on the area you're climbing in. I find Indian Creek crack grades easier than Rifle bolted sport grades by a mile, personally.

Chris tophwrote:

this whole discussion feels like it will vary entirely based on the area you're climbing in.

This is 100% true. Grading is not universal. It's a ballpark estimate at best. Which is why, despite endless arguments since the beginnings of climbing itself, no definitive answer has ever been settled upon. It's all subjective, and it's all relative. Unless you break it down into specific examples, no consensus is likely to be reached. Honestly, you shouldn't put too much thought into grades. 

I TR’d a 5.10b slab in Tuolumne that felt harder than all 5.11+ sport routes I’ve led elsewhere.

And Yosemite 5.9 cracks are invariably harder than 5.10 sport climbs elsewhere.

Maybe it’s just a Yosemite thing, but this feels true to me (at least at the punter grades I climb).

Salamanizer Skiwrote:

This is 100% true. Grading is not universal. It's a ballpark estimate at best. Which is why, despite endless arguments since the beginnings of climbing itself, no definitive answer has ever been settled upon. It's all subjective, and it's all relative. Unless you break it down into specific examples, no consensus is likely to be reached. Honestly, you shouldn't put too much thought into grades. 

I never meant to say grades were objective or even could or should be, just find it funny that slapping bolts on an intermittent crack could maket he route become perceived as a sport route in which case the moves might feel 5-10-. But if I don't add bolts, it's perceived as a crack and so the same moves would get graded 5-9 on the crack/trad scale. Which is line with apogee saying it's harder to be solid 10- on trad than 11a sport.  

bryanswrote:

"Which is line with apogee saying it's harder to be solid 10- on trad than 11a sport."  

What I'm saying is I don't agree with this part, because I don't think it's universally true. Climbing 10- crack in Indian Creek is easier than the polished 11a warm-ups in Rifle. I climbed Outer Space in Eldo this afternoon, and I don't think it felt harder than 11- sport routes in the area. It just felt scarier.

Yeah, climb a handful of routes at jtree and let us know if you still think the crack routes there are harder for the grade than the bolted routes.