How long until you're forced to downgrade yourself?

I downgrade myself constantly. If I climb a V7 then I know it was actually a V6. If I climb a 5.12c then I’m sure it was because it fit my frame so it’s still a 5.12a for example. I know how hard a climb at my limit should feel like so if it feels easier then I’m sure it was not at my limit. Self debasing regulation.  

Shit, you can call yourself whatever you want, and it makes no difference. Why are you so concerned about others knowing your skill level? If you're planning a route with someone you've never climbed with, you need to talk about more than a number. Are you better at slab than crack? How much experience do you have leading? What routes have you done? At my peak I was solid leading 5.11d face, but sketchy on 5.11a cracks, so if it ever came up, I called myself a 5.11 climber, but it's not a big deal 

^^^
This, pretty much.

Just to be clear for the handful of people that took me seriously: I don't care at all what grades other people climb, and I would never say something to them.

Just a reminder that this is a Mountainproject forum. If you take these too seriously, you are going to have a hard time.

With that being said; some others made pretty good points. Thanks for the fun banter!

My true opinions on this subject

-onsight ability tells a lot of a climbers ability.

-hardest Red point tells a lot about a climbers process.

-I break down sending like this: what can you onsight, what can you send in a day, what can you send in 2-3 days, what can you send over many days? Of course we can all send way harder if we try something like 30 times, but that is absolutely part of the game.

-A climber who can send consistent grades on different rock types and different styles has a higher skill set than someone who can not.

-A climber who can send similar grades on trad and sport has a higher skill set than someone who can not.

-grades are just a suggestion of difficulty, and they only matter when you are looking for a route to climb.

Just keep climbing! If you are achieving higher grades, that's awesome! If you used to climb harder but still love it, that's awesome! 

It’s really simple.  You are ( for that brief moment) whatever grade you’re willing to trad lead outside to try and impress someone.

If it goes well, you were a 5.xx climber 

If it goes poorly, you were at best a 5.(xx-1) climber 

Mr Rogerswrote:

Quality movement on stone and finding that place of vertical Zen IS where it is at for me. I am happier now in my climbing life than I was when I was "strong" and chasing grades.

I mostly agree with this, but climbing harder affords me access to a wider selection of stone and movement.

Sure, there are a lot of great moderates out there, but the pool grows as my skill does. A 5.9 climber misses out on a load of classic 5.10s. There are lots of amazing-looking climbs that I’m not good enough for yet, and a lot of my motivation to train comes from the potential to send them one day.

I was climbing with an occasional partner in Moab recently. He onsighted a pitch graded 5.11 by the first ascentionist Evan Winsheropp, who is of course a very accomplished climber. His reaction: "it can't be 5.11 because I'm not a 5.11 climber, after all I don't climb 5.11 in Eldo."

Me being happy to grab onto my couple 5.11 sport climbs per year to call my self a "5.11 climber" was annoyed, as I fell following the pitch.

I know some people who will say they are 5.11 climbers because they top rope it in the gym. I know others who would only call themselves a 5.11 climber if they can reliably onsight 5.11 trad… like most things in climbing, it depends. I think it’s better to say “I’ve climbed x at this time” rather than “I am an x climber”. Or better yet say nothing at all and just climb 

My buddy JH has a good perspective on this theme.  When he's looking for a climbing partner, he doesn't ask how long they've been climbing. Instead he asks how many days they've been climbing this season.

Example one: a weekend warrior who has been climbing 20 years.

Example two: a dirtbag who just learned to climb in May but spent all summer in Yosemite.

Easy choice for me. I've climbed with both.

Chronically Injuredwrote:

One thing you’ll notice is only punters are really concerned about how hard other people climb. Not to say that I fall into the category of those who climb hard, but this is just an observation. People who climb hard grades are too busy actually being good and not worrying about what others are doing. The amount of times I’ve heard someone talking about a route or boulder being soft and proceeding to flail is hilarious. Will I invite the person who maxes out at V3 to go work a V10? Probably not. Do I feel the need to tell them why I’m not inviting them? Also not. Will I invite the person who feels the to spray down others on where they think their level is at? Absolutely not lol. People will be absolute vibe crushers then be disappointed they never are invited to the session. 

I like how your handle is an excuse 

Camdon Kaywrote:

I mostly agree with this, but climbing harder affords me access to a wider selection of stone and movement.

Sure, there are a lot of great moderates out there, but the pool grows as my skill does. A 5.9 climber misses out on a load of classic 5.10s. There are lots of amazing-looking climbs that I’m not good enough for yet, and a lot of my motivation to train comes from the potential to send them one day.

Keep at it!  You're absolutely right that the menu broadens with ability.  The five best multi's in Yosemite are in the 5.11 range.  It seems to be a magic spot where rock quality, cleanliness, variety, and aesthetic intersect.

Not to say there's not a lifetime of 9s and 10s that are good, but there's just some killer places those don't go.  5.12 didn't have nearly the amount or variety in my day: 5.11 was the sweet spot.

Ben Zartmanwrote:

Keep at it!  You're absolutely right that the menu broadens with ability.  The five best multi's in Yosemite are in the 5.11 range.  It seems to be a magic spot where rock quality, cleanliness, variety, and aesthetic intersect.

Not to say there's not a lifetime of 9s and 10s that are good, but there's just some killer places those don't go.  5.12 didn't have nearly the amount or variety in my day: 5.11 was the sweet spot.

In my opinion this this is still the sweet spot. I climb at The City of Rocks a lot, and there is a ridiculous amount of 4 star 5.11 climbs. Being good at 5.11 will also grant you passage up low 5.12 with a little bit of hanging or pulling on gear. 

With that level of proficiency, a climber can go to many of the most popular areas and enjoy the majority of the classics.

Jon Hartmannwrote:

I downgrade myself constantly. If I climb a V7 then I know it was actually a V6. If I climb a 5.12c then I’m sure it was because it fit my frame so it’s still a 5.12a for example. I know how hard a climb at my limit should feel like so if it feels easier then I’m sure it was not at my limit. Self debasing regulation.  

I've done the opposite, and followed suit of some of the young, top climbers by FA'ing new climbs and grading them a couple grades above my previous hardest send. So far it's really working out. I'm pretty much considered a V12 climber while only have climbed a few V10's. 

A smart-ass friend once told me that "You never know you're on the downslope until you're halfway down it." Just had my 55th b-day and I can't believe how much harder it is to stay on top of things.
Truth be told, I haven't actually stayed on top of things. 

The rubber hits the road really hard when I'm developing new routes: I can't grade for shit anymore. Sometimes, I can't even begin to tell. 

And I get way more trashed from cleaning and working new lines. Can't seem to stop though.  

If you never upgrade, then downgrading is not an issue.  5.7 for life!

Camdon Kaywrote:

I mostly agree with this, but climbing harder affords me access to a wider selection of stone and movement.

Sure, there are a lot of great moderates out there, but the pool grows as my skill does. A 5.9 climber misses out on a load of classic 5.10s. There are lots of amazing-looking climbs that I’m not good enough for yet, and a lot of my motivation to train comes from the potential to send them one day.

I think we are in agreement more or less.
As I stated higher up in my post, abolutely I am always trying to be "better", but with no expectation around what "better" will be this year or the next 10.

Cause you are right Camdon...When I was a 5.11 trad climber the amount of terrain that opened up is insane. Also way less crowds. I would love to get back to that level again for those reasons and more, but finding a mental place of being totally okay not getting back there is what is freeing and shifted the amount of joy I get out of climbing in general.... despite being more of a punter.
A huge win for this middle aged dude who thought he might not ever really climb again.

I've been thinking a lot about this topic recently and I think for me it's important to draw a distinction between my real grade / practical grade (MP grade) and my spray / social grade.

Real grade / MP grade : the grade you can reliably on sight, your wheelhouse grade. For example for me I'm a 5.9 climber even though I occasionally flash 10a and 10b. I'm hoping to climb an absolute butt ton of 5.10 this year and flip that switch to where I internally know I'm a real 5.10 climber.

Spray grade / social grade: the hardest thing you've ever sent, including indoors route and boulders even at soft gyms, and can also include lofty grades of projects you tried or are thinking about trying. For example my spray grade is sometimes I flash v5, did a v7 the other day that seemed soft, did a one move v8 mantle at Englewood, toproped some 5.12s and one hanged some 5.13s. I've also sent 5.11 outdoors and capped off last year's climbing season with a sick 6 pitch 5.11 in big Thompson canyon. So I guess I'm a v8 boulderer and 5.12 climber! Spray grade is actually important though I have learned for conversing with non climbers or occasional climbers / team kids who have no context of a real grade, and therefore will judge you for only being a 5.9 climber or think you're not experienced compared to talk of spray grades they hear from other sources / climbers. spray grade also useful sometime for pumping yourself up for your proj or that next soft 5.11a tick like c'mon I got this I eat v7s at moment rino for breakfast let's gooo

For single pitch, or bouldering, sometimes it doesn't really matter much if you are matched for abilities. I'm not leading at all (not safe with knees that aren't team players), so it's a lead belay on my side, then, if I'm climbing at all, it's top rope for me. Once on top rope? I climb anything in reach that looks interesting to me. My "route" has been parts of several routes, more than once. It's fun, fun, climbing! Sometimes, I end up climbing the seldom climbed trad routes adjacent to bolted routes, or the interesting terrain all across a face, lol!

Even more so on bouldering. What I can mess around with, has nothing to do with spotting you on your double digit boulder project. And, you have someone who really appreciates your abilities. 

Until you get to really high level venues, with nothing easier, mixed abilities can still have fun. 

The other direction strong climbers can go? 

That truly easy stuff with little to no pro, if they are comfortable soloing while dragging a rope behind. Boy, those things are fun!

Helen

Shaun embodies everything Trevor wishes he was. 

This morning I was forced to say this, into my bathroom mirror:

"My god you're fat! Weak too! Not to mention ugly but that never stopped you before. You don't have any business calling yourself a climber. I bet you can't even climb back on that barstool from which you fell, so fucking far! Your partners won't call you back, not that they ever considered you a partner to begin with, more like a needly client! You couldn't even carry their chalk bags!"

Thus invigorated, I went on with my day. 

How about you?