Optimizing crack shoes for hard multis

What are you doing for carrying food/water/layers/approach shoes? For longer multis with distinct crux pitches, have you considered incorporating hauling into your process? Hauling a tag bag lets you bring extra shoes, layers, water, whatever. And it gets the pack off your back which is the best part of all.

In the right terrain, you can fix and follow so the leader can quickly haul a bag and then chill and recover ahead of the next pitch instead of manning the belay. 

Slim Pickenswrote:

What are you doing for carrying food/water/layers/approach shoes? For longer multis with distinct crux pitches, have you considered incorporating hauling into your process? Hauling a tag bag lets you bring extra shoes, layers, water, whatever. And it gets the pack off your back which is the best part of all.

In the right terrain, you can fix and follow so the leader can quickly haul a bag and then chill and recover ahead of the next pitch instead of manning the belay. 

I've recently tried clipping everything to my harness and forgoing the backpack. I'd like to try to keep doing that. I haven't thought about hauling aside from a few chimney pitches. Fix and follow seems like an advanced tactic, but I'll look into that. I'm assuming you're suggesting this as a way to carry more gear/shoes?

Esther, I meant to post this before but got busy and forgot:

The toes profile of the katana velcro is considerably narrower than the Katana lace. After 10 years of not being available in the US, now a couple shops have them. I bought my new ones at Eastside Sport in Bishop. Since you are around CA.

The new Katana velcro has a bit more stiffness than the old Katana velcro. Compared to the Katana lace, the new velcro is just a completely different shoe.

I've found that La Sportiva Finales serve pretty well as multi-pitch trad shoes. The toe profile is a lot narrower than TC Pros which makes them feel way better in anything thin hands size and smaller than TC Pros do. They aren't as stiff as TCs and that's the only thing I'd change, but I think they're pretty underrated. I used to be a TC Pro fanboy and swore by them but once I started climbing 10+/11- more often, I was getting frustrated often by how clunky TC Pros feel in thinner cracks. Finales for general multi pitch trad use and katanas for when you need top tier edging and/or super thin crack lines.

Cosmic Hotdogwrote:

I've found that La Sportiva Finales serve pretty well as multi-pitch trad shoes. The toe profile is a lot narrower than TC Pros which makes them feel way better in anything thin hands size and smaller than TC Pros do. They aren't as stiff as TCs and that's the only thing I'd change, but I think they're pretty underrated. I used to be a TC Pro fanboy and swore by them but once I started climbing 10+/11- more often, I was getting frustrated often by how clunky TC Pros feel in thinner cracks. Finales for general multi pitch trad use and katanas for when you need top tier edging and/or super thin crack lines.

I also like Finale for thin cracks. The toe profile is very nice for thin hands and below. 

Modern Mocasyms are a huge joke outside of hand cracks and comfort. 

grug gwrote:

I also like Finale for thin cracks. The toe profile is very nice for thin hands and below. 

Modern Mocasyms are a huge joke outside of hand cracks and comfort. 

That's funny, I wore finales for a long time and found they had too much material and created hot spots when I tried to climb cracks in them. BUT I wore for the older model and I haven't tried the latest version. Since switching to Katanas and Solutions I find Finales to be way less sticky for face climbing and slab and I just trust my feet more in Katanas and Solutions. I think my thin hands are also different size to an average sized thin hands. Maybe I'll find a pair of worn finales somewhere just to test it out on thin hands, but it still wouldn't help me with my using different shoes for different sizes conundrum! 

phylp phylpwrote:

Esther, I meant to post this before but got busy and forgot:

The toes profile of the katana velcro is considerably narrower than the Katana lace. After 10 years of not being available in the US, now a couple shops have them. I bought my new ones at Eastside Sport in Bishop. Since you are around CA.

The new Katana velcro has a bit more stiffness than the old Katana velcro. Compared to the Katana lace, the new velcro is just a completely different shoe.

Phylp Phylp, I'll keep an eye out for the Katana velcro next time I'm in Bishop! I haven't worn velcro shoes ever and I would expect they wouldn't be ideal for cracks, but I suppose for a more shallow jam, it wouldn't matter. Also the velcro on these look to have a much thinner profile than velcro tabs I've seen on other shoes. Thanks for the rec, I'll check them out!

Esther Pwrote:

I've recently tried clipping everything to my harness and forgoing the backpack. I'd like to try to keep doing that. I haven't thought about hauling aside from a few chimney pitches. Fix and follow seems like an advanced tactic, but I'll look into that. I'm assuming you're suggesting this as a way to carry more gear/shoes?

As it pertains to your OP regarding climbing multi-pitches that are approaching your limit, hauling (and by extension fix and follow) are definitely techniques worth learning and using.  The closer you get to your limit, the less fun wearing a pack or having a bunch of extra stuff on your gear loops will be.  If you're not worried about sending, then sure, doing whatever makes sense.  But if you want to enjoy the experience of trying to execute harder movements on a multipitch, then hauling and fix and follow are typically the best ways to do that.  

To facilitate hard movement, you want to be comfortable, nourished, and well equipped, but don't want to deal with carrying that weight while climbing. (after all, the whole point is to focus on the hard climbing and the extra weight will be an annoying distraction at best)  Hauling is 100% the best way to accomplish 'having your cake and eating it too' on that front.  A day bag with food, water, and layers for two, extra gear, etc really isn't that heavy or hard to haul if you have the right tools/techniques.  Sure, you can go lighter in those categories so that it's less weight on your harness, but then you're not as well equipped to be comfortable and nourished on route.  Or, worse, you are well equipped, but it's all on your harness and makes the climbing feel much harder and less fun.  

One caveat is that it's also important to understand when not to haul as a given route will usually have some pitches that don't haul well in addition to some that do.  If a pitch is really low angle and featured or if it's loose, hauling will be really annoying or dangerous.  Having a haulpack that converts easily into being wearable is quite useful and anticipating when to apply which technique can save you a lot of annoyance and risk. (the good news is that the harder the pitch, the easier it typically is to haul)

Fix and follow, while somewhat of an advanced technique, is in most regards simpler than standard multipitching technique, so it shouldn't be too difficult to learn.  The reason it pertains to this conversation is that after arriving at an anchor between hard leads, hauling a bag is no big deal and quite easy to do most of the time, but doing that while belaying your partner is complicated, time consuming, often results in messy rope management, and most importantly isn't restful. (in the event that you have to cast off on another hard lead once your partner arrives) TLDR: earning to fix and follow complements hauling really well.

It seems the OP is really looking for a crack specific shoe that also face climbs very well and has all day comfort.  “One show to rule them all.”  Aren’t we all looking for that?

I mentioned the Pronk before. I don’t think it will satisfy the desire for sport/face performance but check it out. The more people that want these, the better.

Fix and follow and hauling are certainly techniques to explore.  Although they add complexity and weight to your kit, they can be surprisingly rapid and restive once you develop proficiency.  

But the minimal approach is also valuable.  Single rope, shoes on feet, light rack, a tiny bit of water and snacks.  If you are climbing near your limit you will want to tailor your shoe choice to the hard climbing.  Unless it’s featureless splitter cracks, you want a good sport shoe.  

I climbed a lot of creek pitches in old-style Katana Velcros.  I haven’t tried the new design.  The old ones did have something of a duck bill at the big toe that could be torqued in smaller cracks.  They did not perform well on the pinky side.  They were very narrow across the tow box and gave me foot cramps.  They were also quite uncomfortable in hand cracks.  Just my personal experience.  

Here’s a couple toe profile pics.  First is TC and Katana Lace:

Second, Katana Lace and Instinct VS.  Note the bump out to the sole on the VS.

Here’s the Katana lace and Instinct on my feet.  The Katana definitely has a flatter inside profile.  I find it puts the power point at the corner of my toe rather than in the center.  The old velcro was even more pronounced.

FWIW, I climbed a hard splitter in the Instincts last weekend and they performed well on oblique smears and .5 jams.

One more thought:  Resoling a shoe with a thinner sole may give better small crack engagement.  You lose the most rubber in the first centimeter of the sole.  3mm sole vs 5mm isn’t much, but it’s that much less keeping your shoe out of the crack.  It’s also more flexible.

Calebwrote:

It seems the OP is really looking for a crack specific shoe that also face climbs very well and has all day comfort.  “One show to rule them all.”  Aren’t we all looking for that?

I mentioned the Pronk before. I don’t think it will satisfy the desire for sport/face performance but check it out. The more people that want these, the better.

Fix and follow and hauling are certainly techniques to explore.  Although they add complexity and weight to your kit, they can be surprisingly rapid and restive once you develop proficiency.  

But the minimal approach is also valuable.  Single rope, shoes on feet, light rack, a tiny bit of water and snacks.  If you are climbing near your limit you will want to tailor your shoe choice to the hard climbing.  Unless it’s featureless splitter cracks, you want a good sport shoe.  

I climbed a lot of creek pitches in old-style Katana Velcros.  I haven’t tried the new design.  The old ones did have something of a duck bill at the big toe that could be torqued in smaller cracks.  They did not perform well on the pinky side.  They were very narrow across the tow box and gave me foot cramps.  They were also quite uncomfortable in hand cracks.  Just my personal experience.  

Here’s a couple toe profile pics.  First is TC and Katana Lace:

Second, Katana Lace and Instinct VS.  Note the bump out to the sole on the VS.

Third, Skwama and Katana Lace. The chisel is better on the Skwama.

Here’s the Katana lace and Instinct on my feet.  The Katana definitely has a flatter inside profile.  I find it puts the power point at the corner of my toe rather than in the center.  The old velcro was even more pronounced.

FWIW, I climbed a hard splitter in the Instincts last weekend and they performed well on oblique smears and .5 jams.

One more thought:  Resoling a shoe with a thinner sole may give better small crack engagement.  You lose the most rubber in the first centimeter of the sole.  3mm sole vs 5mm isn’t much, but it’s that much less keeping your shoe out of the crack.  It’s also more flexible.

I'm not necessarily looking for "one shoe that rules them all" as the answer, though if that shoe does exist, I'm certainly happy to hear about them. More interested in learning how other folks approach this, as I'm sure folks have explored ideas that work for them. Most people I know IRL wear TC Pros for most trad climbs regardless of difficulty and types of crack/style of climbing. They also usually still have different shoes for sport climbing or bouldering.

Alternatively to finding the "ideal shoe", sounds like some folks generally take a single pair of shoes that work best for the crux moves. Some people wear socks in their comfy trad shoes. Some people have found different shoes that work better for them. Some people fix and follow so they can take all the options, though if anything involved long approaches, I would still aim towards a more minimalist set up. And some climbers probably wear suboptimal shoes and still send plenty hard. 

Thanks everyone for sharing your ideas!

I have a pair of comfy katana lace I wear when I think I will need to stand on small edges and a pair of super comfy tc pros I wear otherwise. I don’t boulder, so I haven’t really ever needed anything else. They are too expensive though.

I pop my heals out with both shoes, but this is as much for sweat/foot gunk as it is my heals. Big shoes don’t slip, slimy ones do

Esther Pwrote:

So, I wear two different shoes depending on the crack sizes. TC pros don't work for me, I have wide feet/narrow heels and the lasts are way too narrow. 

I wear Katana laces (sized comfortably) for anything with straightforward cracks up to 5.10- and on any long multis that are well within my flash grade. I prefer to wear LS Solutions (sized aggressively) if I'm climbing any harder (for me) single pitch where I want to really trust my feet (something like Lunatic Fringe or 5.10+ at Sentinel Creek in Yosemite) generally ring locks or finger cracks where my toes generally aren't deep in a crack.

So to return to your original post:

I also tried on a pair of TC Pros after hearing my friends talk about them for years.  But like you I also cannot wear them.  The heel section was super irritating on my achilles.

But well before TC Pros were even a model, a very common shoe for what you are describing was the Mythos.  I probably did almost every 5.10 and some of the most popular 5.11 cracks in the Valley in Mythos and so did many others.  I did, and still do get them resoled with a new 1/2 sole out of the box with something a bit softer because the La Sportiva rubber can be a bit slick for friction.  It used to be Stealth but now the folks at Rubber Room have another sticky rubber with a name I forget. Mythos don't edge great but at some point on the old Supertopo site this subject came up and the immortal Werner Braun described to me some special trick he used to do with an extra half sole that he shaved down in specific areas to make a Mythos for a perfect Valley crack shoe with edging capabilities.

I don't really do many harder 5.10 cracks any more but the  Mythos is still my favorite all day shoe.  If I am going to do something harder where I may need a bit more edging precision I use the Katana Velcro as I described above.

Have fun with your shoe adventure!