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Distribution of Impact/Traffic to Crags
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Longer form title: The effects of MountainProject, social media, and new development on the distribution of traffic and overall impact to our climbing areas Despite the academic title, I don’t have much of a thesis here - moreso just a probe to a community who has been involved longer than me and a general space for a discussion I’m curious about:
I have a lot of thoughts on these, but also recognize my time in the sport is entirely mired in the social media age of climbing, and extremely geographically specific. So, curious to hear y’all’s thoughts on how these changes have actually played out in your experiences over the years. I’ll probably try and actually pull some data to see if there’s any (highly caveated) objective story to tell here |
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I have an observation for my local climbing area (Western Colorado). While bouldering becomes more popular year by year, local trad climbing and even sport climbing seem to have gotten less popular over the last 4 years or so. I remember when I started climbing around here seeing other people out much more, now it's almost a surprise when I run into another party even at relatively well-known crags. I also see fewer beginner/new climbers out there, it seems to be mainly the same handful of experienced people. Am I crazy, it is a fluke, or has anyone else noticed this too? |
Aaron Kwrote: If you started four years ago, it was during the pandemic. The outdoors were absolutely overrun during that period. And, you are correct. It does seem that traffic has dropped noticeably since then. |
Tal Mwrote: I think most outdoor climbing occurs at well known and quality destination areas. With the growth in popularity of climbing, visitation has increased.
Social media seems to magnify the hype factor. I live in Bishop and have noticed that when the Buttermilk country is the hot topic, visitation seems to increase. Pine Creek used to be empty and as soon as a new guidebook and magazine articles were published, visitation increased massively.
Change is inevitable, whether it’s good or bad is usually a matter of personal perspective. Praise the good aspects, criticize the bad aspects. Have conversations. For me, climbing is an expression of freedom. I don’t support Karen’s or regulators.
Whether new development spreads impact seems to be a matter of the quality of the new climbing, how convenient and “safe” it is, and if the new area receives media attention. Again, whether the new development has a positive or negative impact is probably more a matter of personal perspective than a universally quantifiable answer. |
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Don’t post your newly developed areas on MP because you will get pregnant and die. |
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I believe I've seen route development reduce traffic to established areas in certain cases, and the qualifiers seem pretty obvious. An awesome new trad area won't draw many people away from a mediocre, nearby sport crag, etc. But a new crag stacked with quality hard routes will definitely draw folks who are running out of local projects... especially if some goober posts videos online. The most important variables in determining traffic around here seem to be how many bolted moderates there are and how close the parking is. And around here, most of the roadside rock that would render moderates was developed long ago and is mobbed every weekend. So I don't think there's much hope of new development drawing people away from such places. I'm glad to hear that folks are seeing less traffic in their areas these days. That's certainly not the case where I live. On the flip side, my girlfriend was among the wave of young* folks who moved here to work remotely during the pandemic, and I wouldn't trade her for quieter crags. She's the best and, as such, has better things to do with her life than climb. *Here in Santa Fe, a young person is defined as anyone who can stay awake past 9pm. |
Daniel Shivelywrote: Bro cmon I asked for folks’ personal experiences why did you just “it depends” my whole post |
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In my experience: for all the talk of climbing "exploding" in popularity, trad areas seem to be more and more empty. As Aaron said above. Plenty of exceptions, of course, especially "world class" destinations such as Yos, J tree, Indian Creek, etc. .. but in a local level, trad seems to be way less popular than it used to be. (I notice that climbers seem to travel in bigger packs than before. More conducive to single pitching and bouldering) But as far as MP goes, I added a bunch of areas and routes to the database in hopes that people would climb them and help keep the routes clean. I even took a rad picture that I posted on Instagram. So far, no success. |
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I think quality ratings concentrate traffic. I think Social Media posts do the same. The rest is mostly access. I see the concentrating effect as good in that it cleans up routes and creates benchmarks. I see it as bad when it results in a route’s degradation, an area being trashed, or creates too much demand (extreme overcrowding). From a development perspective, adding a variety of grades and styles to a crag does tend to disperse impact. Adding new crags also disperses impact, but if the climbing isn’t good or the access is tough, it won’t have a major effect. |
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Observations: - Beginners/Casuals (50% of climbers) love short approaches, soft grades, and sport multipitch. There are a lot of these people and they tick a lot of stuff. On a hot ass sunny day they will be swarming the crags but when its perfect temps they will be nowhere to be found.. - The more Intermediate/Invested climber (40% of climbers) is going to be strong enough and have enough experience to sniff out the well established “classics” (whatever discipline). There are a fair number of these folks and they go climbing more often than beginners but tend to stick to the popular areas. You will find them waiting in line at the classics. Once they’ve sent the classics in their ability range they will go flail on the same project all summer or blast off on wide ranging trips to destination areas. These folks tick a fair number of the more moderate harder stuff , and when they send a higher end project after a year of flailing they may write a novel about it in social media. - The Advanced/Obsessed amateurs (9% of climbers) tend to be more focused in their disciplines, e.g. they mostly sport climb or mostly boulder, but can usually do it all at a decently high level. They either (essentially) work part time or are fully dirt bags and they climb a lot. These folks tick a fair number of routes (but only stuff that was impressive) and are effective at turning projects into sends but can be prone to epics. They use 8a more than MP. They use periods of poor outdoor conditions to train. These folks will climb obscurities but some won’t really enjoy it. They camp out at popular areas for long periods of time to send the higher end classics. - Finally you have Developers/Chossophiles (1%). These folks fall into one of the buckets above but also spend a big chunk of their available time developing and maintaining climbs or climbing choss. They are an extremely tiny population but create all the climbs everyone else enjoys and have truly unique skills and experiences. They regularly get first or second ascents and seek out obscurities or new climbs posted by others. They often climb at not-yet-public or crags no-one else goes to (yet). Sometimes they aren’t even very good at climbing. They obsess over mountainproject and climb rating ls or comments. |
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You forgot one category: the Chossophile, who intentionally seeks out unknown, obscure, off the beaten path climbs (especially applicable to desert towers and alpine routes). The more inconvenient, the fewer ticks, the better. |
Aaron Kwrote: They are kind of a subset of developers(?) lol |
Ira OMCwrote: Agree. Fewer folks are as adventurous or willing to hike. I think it has much less to do with MP, guidebooks, social media, etc, and much more to do with tightly bolted sport routes (or tightly-protectable cracks). Quality used to be the primary driver of traffic. Now it's tight protection (yes, easier grades have always been a huge driver of traffic, as well as convenience). Visited Tuolumne last summer. EMPTY compared to 20 years ago (even accounting for the reservation system and low visitation from Euros and Canadians) - something like 90% reduction in climbers compared to 20 years ago. But tightly bolted sport areas are slammed. Many gyms run classes on "how to fall" - bet you can't find a single gym in the country that runs a class on "the leader must not fall"! Or a gym that could possibly have insurance if they had just a couple bolts in 40 feet of climbing. Not criticizing anyone, tight protection is just what everyone has gotten used to - I have for sure! Also people generally have less free time, and trad climbing (including runout face) just takes more time to learn. Anyway, gut feel is that social media and MP don't have much of a different effect than magazine articles and guidebooks did in the past, and new routes don't either unless they fall into the "convenient access & good protection" bucket. |
Aaron Waitwrote: Feeling very called out, minus the social media (but I will spray to all my friends who will listen) |
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As others have eluded to, people are drawn to high-star count routes or those described as classics. I think newer climbers are particularly susceptible to do this in that they're often not getting outside that often so they 1) Probably don't know the area that well, 2) Don't go back enough to try anything else. I'd also bet, these same folks are going to give that route 4 starts. Meanwhile, the routes not adorned with classic-status kind of fall into obscurity (regardless of how good they might be). |
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Susceptible? They are classics for a reason. You guys make it sound like these people are dirt or something. Like you never lined up for a classic. Get over yourselves. |
Cherokee Nuneswrote: I guess a follow up question here: how many classics were always classics? Vs how many were 2ish star lines with great access that cleaned up into its classic status? I’m pretty bad at discerning star ratings. My rating system is generally
4 stars for me should be I’m thinking about it when I go to sleep, when I wake up, and when I’m daydreaming about climbing. There’s very few lines I’ve ever been on that meet that criteria, and almost none of them are generally considered 4-star lines |
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Very interesting and informative discussion in this thread I believe that the biggest contributors are: 1. Roads leading to said crags I would like to contradict statements that MP makes crag traffic worse, I am convinced that the more time folks spend on MP the less time they have to climb |
Cherokee Nuneswrote: I think there’s room for criticism here. We’ve all climbed highly rated, popular routes. But there’s a tipping point where most routes go unclimbed and everyone jockeys for the same route. It’s not the end of the world, but we all might have more fun if we branched out a bit. There are so many under appreciated routes out there and they’re really excellent. I often end up on those routes and probably would more if my partners weren’t so fixated on star ratings or the photos they saw in the guide book.
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Heard all the same points 30 years ago in the valley. Same ole classics today, as there were then. Same criticisms of those who climb them. And yet, if they didn't climb them they wouldn't be classics. 30 years from now there will still be those classics and those who criticize people for doing them. |
