What have you learned?

Salamanizer Skiwrote:

This is all good advice. One thing you'll also need is some good health coverage. For years down the road when you develop tendonitis in your big toes from the hours of drilling on your tippy toes ;-) 

If you're drilling in good/hard rock (granite) on really hard routes. I use 1/4in x 1.5in buttonhead pin anchors. They're similar to split shaft rivets but down crater the rock like splits do. You can find them like Duplex Nails which makes them easier to pull. (Duplex Nails are the ones with two heads made to be temporary) You can set a bolt in less than 5 min. Just be sure you can return later and replace them with real bolts. If you're using a power drill, you can place a 2-inch pin bolt in under 1 min.  

Any experience with 1/4” pin anchors in limestone overhangs?  

Calebwrote:

Any experience with 1/4” pin anchors in limestone overhangs?  

For temporary use as a redirect or for bodyweight only, yes. They work great. But I wouldn't trust them to lead on with limestone. Too many variables in limestone. But I don't have a ton of experience with limestone as a whole. I'd imagine some would probably be ok.  Those pin bolts can be a beast to pull, and I've never had one come out on me. I've whipped on 1 1/2 bolts I placed in a hurry and didn't even clean the hole out. I'd be interested to see someone do some pull testing on them. I bet they pull out at a lot higher KN than most people would think. 

I mostly bolt top down in soft limestone where can can drive your car off the cliff edge if you're determined enough so weight is not a consideration. 

Glue ins are the standard here. A caulk gun holster is a huge upgrade in reducing mess and can easily be made with a ring of 3" PVC pipe, a hole drilled for a carabiner, and a newspaper bag duct taped on.

For overhangs, I've found aiding my way down is the first step. Some people like Titens but I haven't had much luck with them personally. Removable bolts can easily be made for <$10 a piece and work wonders. I followed Kevin's instructions in the following link, using tin snips to cut the sleeve and replacing the standard nut with a ring nut like he references in a different thread. For a 3/8" sleeve, a 10mm bit drills a hole that is a perfect size for easy installation and removals but is secure enough for aiding. Plus the ring nut allows you to install the bolt by hand or with a carabiner for leverage.

Combine these with 2 adjustable fifis and you're unstoppable. I have a short one with a Kong resting fiffi and a longer one, more adjustable one with a resting fiffi that doubles as a hook lanyard.

I also like a shock lanyard on my drill so if I need to/accidentally drop it, it is gentler on my body and the tool.

I've also had issues with ring loading my belay loop and it slowly starting to unravel so on a dedicated development harness, I like to add a ring open to help with that problem.

DIY removable bolts:

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/122243629/diy-removable-sleeve-bolts-for-development-not-as-permanent-hardware

Related thread for further reading:

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/114971481/bolting-tips-and-tricks

I have learned more expensive isn't always better.  I used Bosch hammer drills for years and then decided to try the cheap 20v Harbor Freight hammer drill.  $69 bucks and picked up another on sale for $29.  Combined with the 5ah battery it has quickly become my favorite drill.  My first HF drill is still going strong after 5 years of abuse.  I originally bought it out of curiosity but it soon became my frontline workhorse.  Using the 5ah battery I get easily 25 holes 3/8x3" in quartz monzonite and rhyolite.  

Kevin Mokracekwrote:

I have learned more expensive isn't always better.  I used Bosch hammer drills for years and then decided to try the cheap 20v Harbor Freight hammer drill.  $69 bucks and picked up another on sale for $29.  Combined with the 5ah battery it has quickly become my favorite drill.  My first HF drill is still going strong after 5 years of abuse.  I originally bought it out of curiosity but it soon became my frontline workhorse.  Using the 5ah battery I get easily 25 holes 3/8x3" in quartz monzonite and rhyolite.  

I can speak to the virtues of a cheaper drill. I've used the small Greenworks one, at about 60 dollars for the tool. It's done a good job, is super light, and you don't worry about trashing it by accident. Highly recommend!

Lesson from yesterday - don't leave your glue tube + nozzles in the sun before you use them. Was a high of 52 but sunny and I had my glue dry in the nozzle twice after <5 minutes of no use. Whoops! Guess I get to huff that gear back to the crag another day.

Kevin Mokracekwrote:

I have learned more expensive isn't always better.  I used Bosch hammer drills for years and then decided to try the cheap 20v Harbor Freight hammer drill.  $69 bucks and picked up another on sale for $29.  Combined with the 5ah battery it has quickly become my favorite drill.  My first HF drill is still going strong after 5 years of abuse.  I originally bought it out of curiosity but it soon became my frontline workhorse.  Using the 5ah battery I get easily 25 holes 3/8x3" in quartz monzonite and rhyolite.  

Something has gone terribly wrong here. Harbor Freight gear cannot last more than half a normal tool's lifespan. I've alerted HF to your case, they're sending some agents out. Please cooperate with them, it's not worth resisting.

More philosophy than nuts and bolts, but here goes:

Most things I develop are pretty remote.  That may change the perspective substantially.  

How many people are going to climb what I’m bolting?  Are trails warranted?

When is it better to set up an anchor, but leave the wall un-equipped?  

I spend a lot of time on TR solo sussing out the climbing and cleaning.  Maybe that’s the experience the next person is looking for as well.  Am I bolting just for my own ego?  Would the experience be better for the next person  if I left no trace at all?

Recently I have noticed people installing anchors and setting fixed lines but never progressing to bolting the route.  These are kind of just fixed TR solos.  Something about this seems off.

A lot of the lines I look at would go on gear but it would be challenging or dangerous.  Only bolt the dangerous parts, go ahead and bolt the whole thing, or leave it for the rare trad adventurer?  Would a tradster be happy to find an anchor or be disappointed?

How many routes should I bolt before it’s time to start climbing them?  What about routes that are above my send grade?  How much climbing elsewhere should I be doing to keep a good perspective?  

I’m probably over-thinking it.

Calebwrote:

More philosophy than nuts and bolts, but here goes:

Most things I develop are pretty remote.  That may change the perspective substantially.  

How many people are going to climb what I’m bolting?  Are trails warranted?

When is it better to set up an anchor, but leave the wall un-equipped?  

I spend a lot of time on TR solo sussing out the climbing and cleaning.  Maybe that’s the experience the next person is looking for as well.  Am I bolting just for my own ego?  Would the experience be better for the next person  if I left no trace at all?

Recently I have noticed people installing anchors and setting fixed lines but never progressing to bolting the route.  These are kind of just fixed TR solos.  Something about this seems off.

A lot of the lines I look at would go on gear but it would be challenging or dangerous.  Only bolt the dangerous parts, go ahead and bolt the whole thing, or leave it for the rare trad adventurer?  Would a tradster be happy to find an anchor or be disappointed?

How many routes should I bolt before it’s time to start climbing them?  What about routes that are above my send grade?  How much climbing elsewhere should I be doing to keep a good perspective?  

I’m probably over-thinking it.

The path that I take here is to limit my development/impact to nature when possible. This I why I have enjoyed the process of headpointing climbs with just enough gear for me to be reasonably safe. This is why I don’t claim ownership of climbs and make it clear that other climbers are free to climb rock that I have climbed in the manner that suits them, even if this means fully bolting the line. I’ve mostly been more interested in combining the physical and mental aspects of climbing, rather than simply looking for a physical challenge. When I want a mostly physical, hardest move challenge, I usually choose bouldering. Basically, I just climb how I want and believe that other climbers should climb how they want to also. This doesn’t mean that discussions about style and ethics are not important either. It just implies that a universal answer probably doesn’t really exist. 

Calebwrote:
Recently I have noticed people installing anchors and setting fixed lines but never progressing to bolting the route.  These are kind of just fixed TR solos.  Something about this seems off.

My big local project has been bolting the lines my predecessor here put TR anchors on. I know the guy, and he has since left town. I personally prefer leading routes, while he didn’t mind just dangling a bunch of TRs since the cliff has top access. This has been my priority before adding new routes to this area. It’s been pretty fun.

That being said I still enjoy TRSing from the top anchors.

Calebwrote:

I’m probably over-thinking it.

I will say that I go through all of those considerations and more (as I’m sure you also do). Not every single time, but frequently. I think it just shows you care, which is cool and a good thing. Being intentional about the way that you interact with the sport and the world around you is dope. The ethical and moral considerations that go into development are a big part of the je ne sais quoi of a route, crag, and area as a whole.

I reiterate the benefits of having someone else climb and review your proposed route before bolting it.

• Clean the area BEFORE fine tuning your line and bolting. There will likely be changes to the line, cruxes, and clipping stances. Also, you don't want to impact your new bolts with falling rocks. 
• Try to envision ALL the potential routes in the vicinity of you current focus; including variations, diverging/converging lines, and traverses that could cross. Then, endeavor to strategically place bolts for dual use.
• Click the drill to "off" when not drilling to avoid random starts.
• Remove the drill bit when there's a chance the drill will be flopping around.
• It's nice to have a hand drill available to finish off that last hole after your battery dies.
• Epoxy putty (J-B Water Weld or EP 200) works great to patch holes: It doesn't ooze out of the hole, isn't as messy or need a single-use mixing nozzle like fluid epoxy (you still need gloves or a baggy to mix though), and you can mix only the small quantity needed.
• A Sharpie can sometimes be used to color scarred rock to look more natural.

I find it very hard to get other people to my routes.  The FR is so developed that not many people are interested in obscure lines.  I would love to have development buddies, but they’re few and far between.  

Last season I was developing a wall that had very thin flakes that were very delicate, some were surprisingly strong and could use them as crimps and foot holds but ran the risk of peeling off.   I have never used epoxy to strengthen holds and never liked the visual impact it created.  Some of these potato chip thin flakes were key holds to some of the routes and would really suck if they broke.  I got the idea to try CA glue or "super glue" but not just the regular CA glue but the watery thin kind and not the gel.  I dripped the CA behind the flakes and into the cracks behind the flakes.  Because the glue is so thin it soaked into the cracks with an almost capillary effect.  I let it set up for a day and went back out and tested the holds.  It worked great, flaked that had a flex to them before were solid and the best part is that its totally invisible.  

Kevin Mokracekwrote:

Last season I was developing a wall that had very thin flakes that were very delicate, some were surprisingly strong and could use them as crimps and foot holds but ran the risk of peeling off.   I have never used epoxy to strengthen holds and never liked the visual impact it created.  Some of these potato chip thin flakes were key holds to some of the routes and would really suck if they broke.  I got the idea to try CA glue or "super glue" but not just the regular CA glue but the watery thin kind and not the gel.  I dripped the CA behind the flakes and into the cracks behind the flakes.  Because the glue is so thin it soaked into the cracks with an almost capillary effect.  I let it set up for a day and went back out and tested the holds.  It worked great, flaked that had a flex to them before were solid and the best part is that its totally invisible.  

How longs that stuff going to hold up? I bet it starts to break down after a year or two. I could be wrong. Keep an eye on it and give some updates. They do make epoxy that is almost as thin as water. It’s used as a wood stabilizer in log cabins to fix small patches of dry rot. It soaks into the punky wood and dries hard as a rock. Supposed to hold up indefinitely in outdoor conditions. The stuff I used is called PC- Rot terminator on my cabin. Works great for that. 

Salamanizer Skiwrote:

How longs that stuff going to hold up? I bet it starts to break down after a year or two. I could be wrong. Keep an eye on it and give some updates. They do make epoxy that is almost as thin as water. It’s used as a wood stabilizer in log cabins to fix small patches of dry rot. It soaks into the punky wood and dries hard as a rock. Supposed to hold up indefinitely in outdoor conditions. 

Im going back to the area this week and its been almost a year with exposure to the elements.  I will let you know how it held up.

Kevin Mokracekwrote:

Im going back to the area this week and its been almost a year with exposure to the elements.  I will let you know how it held up.

My buddy put me on to an alternative - if you're seeing issues with CA glue, you can instead by specialized geology glue, used for reconstructing fossils or gems, for the same thing. It's less viscous than water for some of them even, so plenty thin enough, and will be higher quality and more geared explicitly for binding rock to rock. It's a bit pricier, but something to consider for those. He said his have held up really well and you'd never even know they were reinforced.

I've also used the CA glue method and it seems to have held up, but I'm a bit worried at how well it will hold up long-term, especially with the freeze/thaw cycles we get here in CO. Will be curious to hear how yours have done Kevin

To touch on some of the previous comments. I think you all have the right mindset in how to approach putting up routes. There really is no “one shoe fits all” approach as Daniel Shively pointed out.

My personal approach, is to let the rock dictate the route. If you’re putting in a route thats 5.11 but there’s a 5.7 jug haul 3ft to the left you can easily bail onto, then I just make the route 5.7. You can always TR the contrived line if you want. I absolutely hate forced or contrived lines. But in some areas, I get it. Some routes will have that easy section right in the middle or a big ledge that ruins the route and flow. I personally will just pass on the route. But  that’s me, in my area, with the rock I have available, which is abundant.

I also like to do routes ground up, following the natural path the rock gives me. Placing bolts only where “I” need one. And I used to have the mindset that after the F.A. is done, you basically have to climb the route as is or don’t climb it at all. But after many years of experience and many hundreds of bolts later, I’ve learned there are a myriad of reasons why I ran something out, which to the observer would seem totally unnecessary. Dropped drill bits, running out of bolts, time, weather etc… So for me, and my routes, I have taken the stance that if you feel a route could use a bolt or whatever, so long as you’re climbing it ground up and the rock will allow, go ahead and add a bolt. If the rock doesn’t allow a stance or hook and forces a runnout, then it is what it is and you should rise to the challenge. Don't drop a rope down and retrobolt. Let the rock dictate the route. But forcing a route to be dangerous or runnout and demanding it stay that way for no reason? Well, that’s no better than putting in a contrived forced line now isn’t it?  Of course, there are always exceptions to everything. Like too many bolts causing a visual impact in wilderness areas etc. 

Does anyone have a good technique for clearing off the dirt discoloration left behind from detached blocks pulled off? I know scrubbing and blowing it obviously helps, but is there any technique for it that might work well? Always a bummer when a flake or block pulls off and there's quality rock behind it but it's just discolored and looks gross. Does water when scrubbing help more?

Tal Mwrote:

Does anyone have a good technique for clearing off the dirt discoloration left behind from detached blocks pulled off? I know scrubbing and blowing it obviously helps, but is there any technique for it that might work well? Always a bummer when a flake or block pulls off and there's quality rock behind it but it's just discolored and looks gross. Does water when scrubbing help more?

IME a plastic bristle brush and a squirt bottle with a 1/10 vinegar to water solution really speeds it up, then I rinse with water and blow dry. I'd say we use this only on areas that are larger than 6 sf.