Thoughts on Girth Hitch Equalisation

John Tuttlewrote:

Beautiful anchor that would take a new climber an hour to build.

(and the placements would still be shit).

Note that the photo does not show the quality of the placements which is all that really matters.

Lockers, load sharing, neatness etc mean nothing in the absence of strong placements.

Yes, I am trying to make a point here, at the risk of being uncharitable. Not troll the esteemed ser Gaines.

Save me, St. rgold.

I learned bomber placements on YouTube.

Quickdraws on anchors? YGD

Relax king boondoggle hijinks. The placements aren't shown because the question/thread wasn't about the placements. Everyone already knows the placements are most important, but if you were always 100% certain that your placements are completely bomber, then there would be no need for redundancy, and you could just clove in to your single bomber placement with your non-locker. Tying into the rope is also important, and I don't see anyone fussing over that here, because it's not the point. Since you're such the expert, how about you show us what you want us to do for every anchor we build. Pictures would be great. 

Bob Gaineswrote:

New editions of Climbing Anchors 4th Edition and Climbing Anchors Field Guide 3rd Edition, that I coauthored with John Long, came out last year. Lots of info and photos of the quad, girth X, etc., along with info on TR rigging systems like the Joshua Tree System. I don’t know if I invented the quad, but I think we were the first ones to put it in a textbook, many years ago. I always used it for TR anchors, then Guides began using it for multipitch and it really caught on. Some other things we came up with, like the equallette, or the atomic clip, not so much.

Thanks for chiming on on this Bob! One of my favorite options for two bolt belay anchors is the mini-quad, made from tying a doubled 120cm dyneema sling in the quad configuration. Fits most modern two bolt anchors, folds away to nothing, easily accommodates multiple climbers, and can be (typically) quickly untied and used for other purposes as needed. It's really interesting, as someone who started climbing in the late 1970s, to see how gear and techniques have changed over time, generally improving substantially. Thanks to you and John for getting word out about these ideas and techniques and adapting with the times.

I also made my quads with 120cm sling.

Thanks Peter!

Brandon Rwrote:

Relax king boondoggle hijinks. The placements aren't shown because the question/thread wasn't about the placements. Everyone already knows the placements are most important, but if you were always 100% certain that your placements are completely bomber, then there would be no need for redundancy, and you could just clove in to your single bomber placement with your non-locker. Tying into the rope is also important, and I don't see anyone fussing over that here, because it's not the point. Since you're such the expert, how about you show us what you want us to do for every anchor we build. Pictures would be great. 

Welp, I guess you can't write books about it for money because it actually is no more complicated than this:

Here, you don't need the adjustable tether (adjust the cloves) but I honestly am into the "micro comfort" like Cherokee Nunes of a modern adjustable tether. I concede cloves are fiddly for micro adjustments that can make a difference when you have harness sores or sore feet etc.

Or simply this below if you have 3 pieces. This is a little rushed (it was raining) but picture yourself tied into the free end and the tether in the middle for one example for the leader. The second would tether to the far left bolt where the tether is currently and clip the closed loop or one of the other bolts with a clove for a redundant tie in (beware meteor strikes). If you want lockers on the bolts, sure. But I don't care about that because you are clipped into more than one carabiner and two have never come unclipped in the history of climbing:

Or just this below. Equalization, Shock Loading and Extension are not things that actually matter in anchor building. Unless you are belaying off of bodyweight placements that won't hold a bounce test and then all the mnemonics in the world won't save you. And neither will book learning about SERENE. Get strong placements. Take a bolt kit if you have to and do the community a solid (apologies to JTree trad dads, always respect local traditions about bolting). Get strong placements because that and only that is what your life really depends on (as long as you are connected in a redundant fashion). Never trust any single thing that you don't have to depend on. Back up what you can but I do rely on single ropes.

Just put w/e your belay device of choice on the closed loop and you are gtg. Here is a Trax to keep the new kids happy or fix and follow. I just do not recommend a trax for newbies and an Edelrid Pinch would be my recommendation to belay the second or w/e you like and be sure to totally understand the fail modes. I like to be able to safely and easily lower the second in most cases.

Do figure 8 bunny ears if this is not your cup of java. Plenty of simple rope options.

I fail to see how this doesn't do everything necessary (including leading in blocks) and the idea that a quad or cordellete helps you in anyway is just an illusion in your head, imo. Your "spreading out" of the team is by tethering the second to the other bolt which is really the only way. Once a quad or other is weighted you are still shoulder to shoulder anyways.

That's how I do it currently. But I don't have a book to sell.

Get strong placements and tie yourself to them in a redundant fashion. That is all there is to building any anchor. And would make about 1/2 a page in a book.

The first picture above is what I did most of the time when I was a new climber in the 90s. I still do it on occasion, but I moved to using slings (or occasionally a cordelette) because: I like the option to lead in blocks, if there's an emergency I want to be able to bail/self rescue quickly without adding another thing to worry about under duress, and I may want the rope for rope stretcher pitches.

There is a benefit to using the rope since it's dynamic, but I don't think that outweighs the advantages I mentioned. And as mentioned equalization and shock loading aren't a big deal if you have solid placements.

I've NEVER used a American Death Triangle like the 2nd and 3rd pics and don't know why anyone would. On bolts it would probably be okay, but why use something you know increases the forces?

I don't have faff for my tether and just use the rope. Sometimes I like my tether extra long to stand/sit on the edge of a big ledge and they rope is as long as you need. Another advantage of not using the rope in the anchor is it's very easy to see what is what, if you're tethered with the rope, or you have a redirect on the belay.

I trust a single large HMS biner as my masterpoint even though it adds a single point of failure link in the chain. A 24kn / 5,400 lb strength piece of metal that I can keep an eye on does not worry me in the slightest and is worth the added convenience and organization.

Gloweringwrote:

The first picture above is what I did most of the time when I was a new climber in the 90s. I still do it on occasion, but I moved to using slings (or occasionally a cordelette) because: I like the option to lead in blocks, if there's an emergency I want to be able to bail/self rescue quickly without adding another thing to worry about under duress, and I may want the rope for rope stretcher pitches.

There is a benefit to using the rope since it's dynamic, but I don't think that outweighs the advantages I mentioned. And as mentioned equalization and shock loading aren't a big deal if you have solid placements.

I've NEVER used a American Death Triangle like the 2nd and 3rd pics and don't know why anyone would. On bolts it would probably be okay, but why use something you know increases the forces?

I don't have faff for my tether and just use the rope. Sometimes I like my tether extra long to stand/sit on the edge of a big ledge and they rope is as long as you need. Another advantage of not using the rope in the anchor is it's very easy to see what is what, if you're tethered with the rope, or you have a redirect on the belay.

I trust a single large HMS biner as my masterpoint even though it adds a single point of failure link in the chain. A 24kn / 5,400 lb strength piece of metal that I can keep an eye on does not worry me in the slightest and is worth the added convenience and organization.

Pretty sure that "American Death Triangle" can handle the weight of a second without further consideration or worry and is a well-debunked myth. The supposed increase in any load is negligible and if not, then your anchor is so weak as to be unsafe no matter what you do. The real historic problem with the ADT was that the sling itself had no redundancy and you weren't getting as much sharing of load as was thought to be ideal. Now of course, we realize that equalization is a myth and one piece will bear the entire load regardless, especially with static slings. As the angles in my image are all far less than 90 degrees they each are still bearing less than the force generated by the falling second anyways. I trust both my placements and the rope and am not concerned.

If the bolts were farther apart I would not use the ADT and would just clove them together like the first pic (a central master point is optional) just because its easier to get the length right, not that there is any real concern. IF I was using a sling (and I have) I would throw an overhand not in it (not pictured) and create a master point cause I don't like single slings.

The dynamic nature of the rope in the anchor saves FAR more force than you are concerned about from using an ADT as compared to a static sling.

Belaying a leader, my adjustable tether with dynamic cord takes the load and the rest is there to back it up regardless. I'm gonna need it anyways to rap or jug or position myself and is worth it to me.

As far as the single biner master point...more power to you but there will be a day when the gate freezes or gets sticky and doesn't close like it should. The fewer things committed to it the better, imo.

Do you trust your placements and the rope? Respectfully, it doesn't seem you do....

I don't understand why it's "hard to see what is what" with the rope that slings somehow make apparent. Escaping the belay? It's not really a thing but nothing makes that easier than already having an adjustable tether. Just untie and go (wherever you think you are going).

Basically, I am challenging the assembled audience to think about why they are carrying all the crap they do and using slings to do the work of a dynamic and hence, superior, anchor building material? If we actually cared about forces on the anchor we would only use dynamic connections for everything. But we'll sacrifice that for some kind of supposed organization?

We are being sold that we need more lockers, should carry more regular biners than we need (leaving them behind on pieces cause, so what), should carry specialized slings just for belaying and need to follow an acronym (SERENE) that is 2/3's climbing myth to build a safe anchor.

It's not complicated to build an anchor with the rope and regular biners and can usually handle any situation.

ps. see Mark Hudon's pics for examples of rope building for big wall anchors. For brevity all of my pics are just an example of freeclimbing anchors. I can't take exception with Mark's use of lockers in that big wall scenario but that's probably born of my not having any experience on walls with Camp Photon Wires that I use for all my regular climbing. The Photons seem flimsy for big wall anchors (twisting forces but I really don't know if this is a thing) and lockers on the pieces/bolts allow you to rig the haul wherever you want. I can see taking extra lockers on big walls but always just cloved things together bitd and never had any worry about unclipping.

Gloweringwrote:

The first picture above is what I did most of the time when I was a new climber in the 90s. I still do it on occasion, but I moved to using slings (or occasionally a cordelette) because: I like the option to lead in blocks, if there's an emergency I want to be able to bail/self rescue quickly without adding another thing to worry about under duress, and I may want the rope for rope stretcher pitches.

There is a benefit to using the rope since it's dynamic, but I don't think that outweighs the advantages I mentioned. And as mentioned equalization and shock loading aren't a big deal if you have solid placements.

I've NEVER used a American Death Triangle like the 2nd and 3rd pics and don't know why anyone would. On bolts it would probably be okay, but why use something you know increases the forces?

I don't have faff for my tether and just use the rope. Sometimes I like my tether extra long to stand/sit on the edge of a big ledge and they rope is as long as you need. Another advantage of not using the rope in the anchor is it's very easy to see what is what, if you're tethered with the rope, or you have a redirect on the belay.

I trust a single large HMS biner as my masterpoint even though it adds a single point of failure link in the chain. A 24kn / 5,400 lb strength piece of metal that I can keep an eye on does not worry me in the slightest and is worth the added convenience and organization.

Addressing the part in bold-- nothing about the boondoggle anchor prevents that. Simply have your follower clove in underneath the loop of rope that is the anchor. I like on of the knots to be a loop rather than a clove to make that profess easier. Design the anchor to leave one bolt unloaded, and clove follower there first, then clip them into second bolt as their loose backup. If the bolts have rings/links/chains that are trustworthy, then this process is super easy. If it is just two hangers at a hanging belay, it might require the tiniest amount of planning and forethought. 

Agree completely with Glowering above. First anchor pic is okay IF I know I'm swinging leads and I won't need the entire rope... done it and I won't argue there. But I'll trade your PAS tether out for a lighter sling or some cord and just clove in with the rope instead. Don't need to be fiddling with that bulky, heavy thing in the way of my gear loops and belay loop. I'll use the sling/cord as pro on lead if needed, and use it as a tether on rappel too, so it's not a single use specialty item. And I know you can block lead with a rope anchor, but the changeover is so much faster/easier with a sling/cord masterpoint. Most of the time I can just leave it tied too, since most bolt anchors I'm using are horizontally spaced.

No thanks on the death triangle though, even if you may be right about most bolts being able to withstand the additional forces introduced. Definitely a no for a gear anchor. Also no thanks on belaying with a microtrax. There's a reason I use two devices when TR soloing. 

One last thing about lockers on bolts anchors. I have personally seen BOTH non-locking carabiners on a bolt anchor get levered open by the attached rap hardware when catching a hard fall. Heavier climber fell with only one or two pieces in off a mantle move right above me (Demons Delight, Yosemite), I got yanked up HARD, and the anchor rotated up to hold me down. When I looked at the anchor before lowering myself back down, I saw both gates were pushed open by the quicklinks/rap rings. While they didn't fail, it sure was eye-opening. I pretty much always use at least one locker on a bolted anchor since then. 

I absolutely love my Petzl connect. I did decades with a sling but the adjustable connect is a game changer for comfort and versatility.  Extra handy if you find yourself having to do some emergency aid climbing. 

At least for free climbing, all the impromptu aid climbing I've ever had to do was easily accomplished through a bit of french-freeing and the occasional standing in a sling. For aid-intensive routes, having an adjustable daisy like your PAS would make sense though. I don't think they're especially versatile for free routes, but I can see the comfort point. Though adjusting a clove hitch isn't too hard either. 

But thanks for reminding me of some versatility points of a sling or cord at the anchor. 

1. Can be used as a friction hitch and foot loop for ascending a rope. The second falling off a roof or steep route may need to ascend the rope to get back on the rock. I've had to do it once, and at least one partner has had to do it, both times right off the belay too. 
2. Much easier to escape the belay if needed. 
3. Can be used as pro to sling large trees/boulders or extend far off line pieces. 
4. Can be used as a tether and rappel extension on the way down.
5. Can be used for bailing off a variety of makeshift anchors.

And you can leave behind your PAS, prusiks, microtrax, or whatever other luxury items you almost certainly won't NEED if you care to make up for any additional weight of the cord/sling. In fact, I'd like to thank hillbilly for challenging us to think about all the stuff we don't actually need, especially if it can all be replaced by one simple, cheap, versatile item. Of course, people should feel free to continue taking their $100 gadgets and doo-dads with them if they please, climbing isn't just about being the most efficient or lightest machine possible, but also about enjoying the experience. If it works for you and is safe and fast enough, I'm not judging. 

Whatever. Haters gonna hate. I already have a bunch of slings and my auto block is a prussic.The mechanical advantage of the connect is awesome when you have to stand in slings by the ease of tayloring your distance at a stance is the most useful aspect. I climbed for 30 years without one so you certainly don't need it but it's damn nice. 

John Tuttlewrote:

Pretty sure that "American Death Triangle" can handle the weight of a second without further consideration or worry and is a well-debunked myth. The supposed increase in any load is negligible and if not, then your anchor is so weak as to be unsafe no matter what you do. 

The ADT INCREASES force on each anchor. It's physics, you can't debunk it. The example you posted isn't that bad because the angle at the bottom isn't bad so it only puts about 90% of the force on each anchor point. But a 90 degree angle the bottom puts 131% of the force on each anchor point. At a 120 degree angle it puts 193% of the force on each anchor point. It's not the weight of the second you worry about it's leading off the anchor without a place to put another piece so you're getting a factor 2 fall on the anchor. Sure an ADT on bolts would probably be fine for bringing up a second by I'd never use an inferior method that was okay in that situation. I'd use a better option always.

The dynamic nature of the rope in the anchor saves FAR more force than you are concerned about from using an ADT as compared to a static sling.

Let's hear your math. I think a dynamic rope decreases the force by 60% while a wide ADT could put 380% of force on each anchor point. 

J C wrote:
Addressing the part in bold-- nothing about the boondoggle anchor prevents that. Simply have your follower clove in underneath the loop of rope that is the anchor. I like on of the knots to be a loop rather than a clove to make that profess easier. Design the anchor to leave one bolt unloaded, and clove follower there first, then clip them into second bolt as their loose backup.

It doesn't prevent it but it's easier if you have an anchor with a masterpoint. Follower clips in direct to the masterpoint. Leader unclips and climbs. Done.

There's pros and cons to using the rope vs an anchor with a sling, and it's good to be able to do both and know when to use each. 

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

Whatever. Haters gonna hate. I already have a bunch of slings and my auto block is a prussic.The mechanical advantage of the connect is awesome when you have to stand in slings by the ease of tayloring your distance at a stance is the most useful aspect. I climbed for 30 years without one so you certainly don't need it but it's damn nice. 

Yeah dude, I don't think what I wrote constitutes as "hating". I have no problem with you or anyone else having a bunch of slings and an autoblock or PAS on your harness while belaying. I think I even said as much. I even bring extra stuff like that on occasion too. Just pointing out that the word "versatile" is the wrong word for it, that's all. Sorry if you felt I was attacking you.   

Gloweringwrote:

The ADT INCREASES force on each anchor. It's physics, you can't debunk it. The example you posted isn't that bad because the angle at the bottom isn't bad so it only puts about 90% of the force on each anchor point. But a 90 degree angle the bottom puts 131% of the force on each anchor point. At a 120 degree angle it puts 193% of the force on each anchor point. It's not the weight of the second you worry about it's leading off the anchor without a place to put another piece so you're getting a factor 2 fall on the anchor. Sure an ADT on bolts would probably be fine for bringing up a second by I'd never use an inferior method that was okay in that situation. I'd use a better option always.

Let's hear your math. I think a dynamic rope decreases the force by 60% while a wide ADT could put 380% of force on each anchor point. 

It doesn't prevent it but it's easier if you have an anchor with a masterpoint. Follower clips in direct to the masterpoint. Leader unclips and climbs. Done.

There's pros and cons to using the rope vs an anchor with a sling, and it's good to be able to do both and know when to use each. 

Let's get real Glowering.

If the angle is remotely reasonable, like 60 degrees, then the pieces experience 130% of the force on the anchor, but the rope absorbs 60% (your number). 

60% of 130% is 78%. Pretty sure that is completely fine. Especially belaying a second. What is the increase? +50lbs for a fatty like me. Your anchor won't hold that???

Your sling will put 60% on one of the pieces. The difference between the two is negligible because the anchor piece will hold at least double (15-25kn) the max impact force (~7-9kn) in a FF2 fall.

I for one am not worried about my anchor holding 5 - 7kn v 4 to 6 in a worse case scenario for both systems. I do believe the force on the belayer is less with all dynamic attachments but I'm too lazy to argue with math. That's what the force goes through to get the anchor and it's less...I have no doubt than when you use a static sling it transmits slightly higher forces to the anchor and it will all be on one piece. Your cordellette or quad also focuses all the force on one piece. There is not going to be load sharing during a leader fall unless you miraculously have the force applied perfectly and you perfectly predicted the angle.

Please go look at the numerous sources debunking the supposed "badness" of the ADT. It is perfectly fine (for me). If you don't like it, as above, use a bunny ear 8 or use cloves to a master or a quad or cordellette etc. or w/e floats you up a route.

In addition, I am belaying the leader off my adjustable tether backed up by the rest of the anchor. More shock absorption. No clutching of pearls about an "ADT".

I am not the least bit concerned with nearly any connection to the anchor at that point. It's just back up.

You do you man. Carry any specialized gear you want or not. Someday you may see that a more minimalist approach has merit, maybe not. No worries! Be safe!

Just want you (and others) to think.

Hell, maybe after 50 years of climbing experience I'm wrong. Or maybe my tolerance for risk has gotten higher (not likely, I was a quivering old ninny the other day). I do know I've belayed off, bivied off or rapped off shit that would make most these days vomit. When I get 3 bomber cams or 2 3/8" bolts I got no worries. I just tie myself to them in a redundant fashion and rest easy.

Is Mark gonna die? Pretty brutal ADT there he's hauling off of if that central bolt fails...a trusty rusty and no locker either! He's definitely gonna die. Long live Mark! :D.

 certainly, if I am doing an alpine climb with a monster approach that's not technically at my limit I wear an ultra light harness without the Petzel connect on it. for cragging, multi pitch rock, ice climbing etc I wear my regular harness with the connect and I usually have enough slings and gear to get myself out of whatever I get into. 

I'm reminded of this older HowNot2 video:

https://youtu.be/7sQNpjnJe40?si=8MiNFnk53huCSDi5

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

I also made my quads with 120cm sling.

I too make my quads with a 120cm sling. Perfecto. 

John Tuttlewrote:

Let's get real Glowering.

If the angle is remotely reasonable, like 60 degrees, then the pieces experience 130% of the force on the anchor, but the rope absorbs 60% (your number). 

60% of 130% is 78%. Pretty sure that is completely fine. Especially belaying a second. What is the increase? +50lbs for a fatty like me. Your anchor won't hold that???

Your sling will put 60% on one of the pieces. The difference between the two is negligible because the anchor piece will hold at least double (15-25kn) the max impact force (~7-9kn) in a FF2 fall.

I for one am not worried about my anchor holding 5 - 7kn v 4 to 6 in a worse case scenario for both systems. I do believe the force on the belayer is less with all dynamic attachments but I'm too lazy to argue with math. That's what the force goes through to get the anchor and it's less...I have no doubt than when you use a static sling it transmits slightly higher forces to the anchor and it will all be on one piece. Your cordellette or quad also focuses all the force on one piece. There is not going to be load sharing during a leader fall unless you miraculously have the force applied perfectly and you perfectly predicted the angle.

Please go look at the numerous sources debunking the supposed "badness" of the ADT. It is perfectly fine (for me). If you don't like it, as above, use a bunny ear 8 or use cloves to a master or a quad or cordellette etc. or w/e floats you up a route.

In addition, I am belaying the leader off my adjustable tether backed up by the rest of the anchor. More shock absorption. No clutching of pearls about an "ADT".

I am not the least bit concerned with nearly any connection to the anchor at that point. It's just back up.

You do you man. Carry any specialized gear you want or not. Someday you may see that a more minimalist approach has merit, maybe not. No worries! Be safe!

Just want you (and others) to think.

Hell, maybe after 50 years of climbing experience I'm wrong. Or maybe my tolerance for risk has gotten higher (not likely, I was a quivering old ninny the other day). I do know I've belayed off, bivied off or rapped off shit that would make most these days vomit. When I get 3 bomber cams or 2 3/8" bolts I got no worries. I just tie myself to them in a redundant fashion and rest easy.

Is Mark gonna die? Pretty brutal ADT there he's hauling off of if that central bolt fails...a trusty rusty and no locker either! He's definitely gonna die. Long live Mark! :D.

Given how much you've harped on good placements as being the most important part of an anchor (and I agree), don't you think that it undercuts your argument to advocate for using a method (death triangle) that effectually makes each placement weaker? Or do you want strong placements because you want to use an inferior system that artificially requires each piece to be stronger than it would need to be with any other system of attachment? I also don't see how what you're doing is any more minimal than what Glowering is doing... unless of course, you're talking about minimizing anchor strength and not minimizing the amount of stuff you bring. And I don't see an ADT in Marks pic either.