Thoughts on Girth Hitch Equalisation

wivanoffwrote:

Too late!!   blackdiamondequipment.com/p…;

I can't wait to see one in the wild LOL

I wonder what the strength is of those eye bartacks if someone were to load the piece lengthwise--that is, as if it were an open sling.  Would they rip like a screamer?  What is the strength of a bar tack when pulled that way, anybody know?

wivanoffwrote:

Too late!!   blackdiamondequipment.com/p…;

I can't wait to see one in the wild LOL

"creepin' green Chinese crud, I got a saber up my ass!"

-TM Herbert

(my sentiment but TM's immortal words)

John Tuttlewrote:

Fair. Look at us, watching the clouds outside and hoping to get to the gym.

Fundamentally anchor building is about a broad toolkit for finding strong placements or assessing the quality of fixed hardware/tat.

Just tie yourself to those strong placements at more than one point and you are gtg, imo.

THAT is what people should focus on and only comes with experience. Book/forum learning will not do.

This.

There are situations in life where being book smart is helpful—climbing is usually not one of them.

The tendency to overcomplicate something simple reminds me of LinkedIn. Instead of mountain project, here's a great starting point for linkedin manifesto: '10 Reasons Why a Typewriter Is Better Than a PC.'

Book smart. 

Multiple examples of “equalized” sketchy placements on an A4 pitch. The idea here is to get some of the force on each piece so that the combination will at least hold body weight so that the leader can advance. Maybe, just maybe, it would hold a fall. So, y’all can debate whether this is equalized or distributed or whatever.

wivanoffwrote:

Too late!!   blackdiamondequipment.com/p…;

I can't wait to see one in the wild LOL

They should have sewn more strands together for the complete quad effect, they'd sell more for sure. God knows how hard it is to tie a couple overhand knots on a long sling.

John Tuttlewrote:I love to hate quads. No worse nubbery than a quad on two bomber bolts.

Actually the only time I've used a quad is for top rope anchors that served multiple climbs because the masterpoint biners can slide from side to side. And it's often two bolts. And I've been climbing for 35 years.

you can hate on quads all you want but they do allow two sweaty dudes to be at the same hanging belay without being squished together ;)

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

you can hate on quads all you want but they do allow two sweaty dudes to be at the same hanging belay without being squished together ;)

Yeah, this. I will often choose this option when three of us go out on a bolted multipitch of which there are many around these parts. Belays are typically with two bomber bolts. 

Peter Bealwrote:When I see those old John Long book illustrations of complex equalization-oriented anchors webbed out across a belay stance, they start looking about as obsolete as the old photos of shoulder belays and their ilk. They probably took forever to put together and take apart and while they looked great in a book, in real-life were cumbersome, used up too much gear, and were unnecessary in the first place.

New editions of Climbing Anchors 4th Edition and Climbing Anchors Field Guide 3rd Edition, that I coauthored with John Long, came out last year. Lots of info and photos of the quad, girth X, etc., along with info on TR rigging systems like the Joshua Tree System. I don’t know if I invented the quad, but I think we were the first ones to put it in a textbook, many years ago. I always used it for TR anchors, then Guides began using it for multipitch and it really caught on. Some other things we came up with, like the equallette, or the atomic clip, not so much.

Hi Bob, I would be very interested to hear your take on development of the quad. And also, about your recollection for learning of the cordelette. I have my own vision of such history, but with regards to the quad I have a big hole. I know I saw the sliding X  tied with limiting knots, a kind of forerunner to the quad, late 1980's, at the same time I was (re) introducing the cordelette an AMGA group. The cordelette had previously been introduced to two different groups of guides, one by Antoine Savelli (AMGA), and one by Lanny Johnson (PSOM, I have reason to believe). 

Hi Eric, I’m not sure exactly when I first started using a cordellette, but it was probably soon after I started my Vertical Adventures climbing school (1983).

When John Long was working on the second edition of Climbing Anchors (around 2004) he consulted with Jim Ewing at Sterling ropes. Jim was testing rigging methods that provided the best “equalization” and came up with the equalette. John presented it to me and Tom Cecil to test it in the field. At the time, John thought that “no one will ever use the cordellette method again.” But I wasn’t sold on it, the main drawback being its lack of a singular central point. So I played around with the rigging and came up with a doubled equalette, which essentially is the quad.

The quad was included in the second edition of Climbing Anchors, published in 2006.

Just an observation that I find a little odd, but why is a clove hitch always used with the rope, and a girth hitch seems to be preferred for the sling? 

Thanks, and interesting. I don't believe you and I have ever met. I imagine you are still active in Jtree. I might visit there this winter. I was intending to look Don Reid up if he's still around?? Big Al too. 

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

you can hate on quads all you want but they do allow two sweaty dudes to be at the same hanging belay without being squished together ;)

If you were hanging wouldn't you both just end up with your tether biners being pulled down into a V at the bottom of the quad? If there's a ledge you can stand on a see a big advantage of a quad providing a wider area to clip into.  A big reason I like an  anchor with a big HMS biner as the masterpoint is you can clip and unclip while the anchor is weighted easily.

Brandon Rwrote:

Just an observation that I find a little odd, but why is a clove hitch always used with the rope, and a girth hitch seems to be preferred for the sling? 

As St. Augustine once said, Hell is for people who ask such questions.

Since I’m already there, I’ll state what MY reasons are….

1. Girth is slightly faster and easier (especially with gloves) for an equali——er, I mean “optimally Distributed” anchor point

2. As I stated previously in the thread, if a piece blows, I consider the energy sapping slippage of the girth as a positive feature 

Glowering, See bobs picture.  I used the quad for many years ice climbing on screw anchors specifically for it's ability to let you slide laterally to get out of the way of ice bombs. Just last season I went back to a static master point  mostly from the concerns of extension and shock loading if for some reason one leg failed.. I really did like the ease of lateral movement that the quad affords. 

Bob Gaineswrote:

New editions of Climbing Anchors 4th Edition and Climbing Anchors Field Guide 3rd Edition, that I coauthored with John Long, came out last year. Lots of info and photos of the quad, girth X, etc., along with info on TR rigging systems like the Joshua Tree System. I don’t know if I invented the quad, but I think we were the first ones to put it in a textbook, many years ago. I always used it for TR anchors, then Guides began using it for multipitch and it really caught on. Some other things we came up with, like the equallette, or the atomic clip, not so much.

And there you have it. 

A Guide with something to sell.

The masters of single pitch spaghetti to enchant the newbs.

Why waste time trying to teach (assessment of the quality of anchor placement) what only experience can give?

Give them a single point to clip into, the clients can't comprehend anything else...

Hopefully old Bob has a thick skin.

Bob Gaineswrote:

Beautiful anchor that would take a new climber an hour to build.

(and the placements would still be shit).

Note that the photo does not show the quality of the placements which is all that really matters.

Lockers, load sharing, neatness etc mean nothing in the absence of strong placements.

Yes, I am trying to make a point here, at the risk of being uncharitable. Not troll the esteemed ser Gaines.

Save me, St. rgold.