Faith in a fully engaged/cammed grigri?

Top rope soloing I spend a lot of time faffing around on a fixed line with my grigri as my rappel and ascend device. It had me thinking, how much faith and trust do you guys put in a grigri that has been fully engaged and is biting a rope. I find myself sometimes going hands free without a catastrophe knot if I have to do something while working my top rope set up (eg fiddling with a cam to be used as a directional). If I am ever really working something out (spending more time in one position or doing something more involved) I will always tie a stopper catastrophe knot just below the grigri. I also understand that it is probably best practice to technically always tie a stopper knot if you are going hands free at all. Regardless though I am curious on what opinions people have on this topic? Full trust and you always feel good without backup knots? No trust and tie one if your hand ever leaves the break strand? 

Knot always.  Un-weight it and it can slip.

Jay Andersonwrote:

Knot always.  Un-weight it and it can slip.

This ^. Most ABD devices release when the unit is unweighted. The CT Click-Up is the only one I've used that doesn't do that. It's not a good solo TR device though, as you do need to pull the rope through.

It takes almost no time or energy to tie a backup knot. 

If you go to the emergency room... that's a lot of time and energy...

Okay, I’ll say it at the risk of sparking another insufferable TRS thread: standard gri gri’s stink for TRS. I do not have faith in a single standard gri gri between me and the deck in a TRS situation. (Gri gri + in tope rope mode with a backup system for LRS is a different ball of wax).

I would get a trax and a second similiar PCD as backup, a PAS, and an ATC w/ a third hand to rap down. My personal assessment of risk is that I prefer TRSing on two fixed lines with the above mentioned system and swapping devices at the anchor, over a single line and a gri gri w/ knots. But climb your own climb, man. YMMV.

A gri gri requires rope tension to activate the cam. If you remove the tension, it will disengage. Its that simple.. make your choice on risk.

I'd say the main saving grace might be rope stretch. You'd probably have to move up a lot to remove the tension due to how much stretch there is. YMMV. 

Once the cam engages, it pinches the rope and contunually creates the tension need to activate the cam. Sometimes rope friction creates enough tension to activate it. This is why you are not supposed to belay without holding the brake strand.. you create the necessary tension to guarantee the cam activates. 

Having spent countless hours hanging on a gri, I have no doubt it will hold on anything but a new, skinny slippery rope. You only need the slightest bit of weight on the brake side to engage, something like 3 ft of rope is enough if I remember correctly. Maybe if I was on low angle terrain I'd tie a knot but when hanging I don't think twice. Open to being convinced I should be behaving otherwise though!

I'm not the singularly most experienced person, but hanging on a gri-gri hands-free while futzing with things like directional draws/placements on rappel hasn't been an issue for me. As long as the cam activates and holds, it shouldn't be an issue as far as I know - it's also easy to test if it will be ok without a brake hand on, by holding the rope out of braking position while not descending to ensure it holds you in place. It it doesn't hold, IMO you may need a thicker rope or a newer gri gri.

My top rope solo setup is a 10.5mm static rope, gri gri for descending, and 2 microtraxions for progress capturing while climbing. I personally wouldn't do much TRS'ing with a gri gri as your primary progress capture device (I've had poor results with it catching, and it seems like others have too) - but YMMV. Ultimately I hope you have many more happy rope soloing adventures!

I use microtraxs for TRS, but if I want to go hands free on grigri rappel I loop the rope around my leg a few times as a quick backup or set up a third hand if I need to go hands free repeatedly 

Curious if anyone ever slid down a properly loaded grigri and been stopped by their stopper knot they tied? That would be exciting. 

"faith in fully engaged.."

Yes. SPI course 13 years ago taught that a grigri with a back up knot is a reliable belay.

The grigri was designed specifically to engage hands-free, so that a belayer could be fast asleep and still catch a fall.  This fantasy of "always having a brake hand on" is against the purpose of the design, and the only time I've known a grigro slip during a fall situation was when someone pulled on the brake strand so hard that the cam didn't engage because the tight line didn't generate enough friction aganst the cam, since it could hardly touch it.  You need that brake stand to be somewhat loose so it engages the cam.  As soon as he burned his hands and let go, the grigri engaged as normal.

If the rope begins to trickle out of a grigri when unweighted during rapelling, it will quickly catch again when load goes on it, before you accelerate significantly.  I'd tie a backup knot or loop in the end of the rope if it didn't reach the ground, so I couldn't rap off the end while pulling the lever, but backing up a failsafe device makes one wonder why spend the money if you can just back up an ATC with an autoblock, save $$$, and not be any more secure.

Used correctly, the grigri needs no backup.

‘When fully engaged’ is doing a lot of heavy lifting in this discussion. To clarify, I trust it when fully engaged. I lose my religion when it comes to the many and varied ways it can accidentally become not fully engaged along with it feeding like crap (in a TRS setup).

Ben Zartmanwrote:

The grigri was designed specifically to engage hands-free, so that a belayer could be fast asleep and still catch a fall.  This fantasy of "always having a brake hand on" is against the purpose of the design, and the only time I've known a grigro slip during a fall situation was when someone pulled on the brake strand so hard that the cam didn't engage because the tight line didn't generate enough friction aganst the cam, since it could hardly touch it.  You need that brake stand to be somewhat loose so it engages the cam.  As soon as he burned his hands and let go, the grigri engaged as normal.

If the rope begins to trickle out of a grigri when unweighted during rapelling, it will quickly catch again when load goes on it, before you accelerate significantly.  I'd tie a backup knot or loop in the end of the rope if it didn't reach the ground, so I couldn't rap off the end while pulling the lever, but backing up a failsafe device makes one wonder why spend the money if you can just back up an ATC with an autoblock, save $$$, and not be any more secure.

Used correctly, the grigri needs no backup.

This is just not correct. Hard Is Easy tested this and found that it is not true. Maybe someone could find the link for me. 

Tone Locwrote:

Okay, I’ll say it at the risk of sparking another insufferable TRS thread: standard gri gri’s stink for TRS. I do not have faith in a single standard gri gri between me and the deck in a TRS situation. (Gri gri + in tope rope mode with a backup system for LRS is a different ball of wax).

I would get a trax and a second similiar PCD as backup, a PAS, and an ATC w/ a third hand to rap down. My personal assessment of risk is that I prefer TRSing on two fixed lines with the above mentioned system and swapping devices at the anchor, over a single line and a gri gri w/ knots. But climb your own climb, man. YMMV.

Yeah I should have been a lot more specific here, I really did not expand or clarify. For TRS I use a micro and a spoc in line on a single fixed line. The grigri is only for getting down or jugging up. I started out using two lines (a trax on one, a grigri on the other) but got frustrated with that and having to pull the slack out. I also agree that I did not have a ton of faith in the grigri to hold a fall. This was also a 40m climb so, with a 70 m rope, the two lines wasn't an option. But so the scenario I am referring to is doing stuff like hanging on your fixed line and hanging directional draws without putting a stopper knot in the grigri. 

Tone Locwrote:

‘When fully engaged’ is doing a lot of heavy lifting in this discussion. To clarify, I trust it when fully engaged. I lose my religion when it comes to the many and varied ways it can accidentally become not fully engaged along with it feeding like crap (in a TRS setup).

Yeah I did not clarify enough here. I do not use the grigri for that actual TRS system of climbing. Just for rapping a single fixed line and as a progress capture when jugging. I tried to use it for TRS for a bit but got fed up with its inability to feed and its overall clunkiness. 

Jonathan Barrettwrote:

This is just not correct. Hard Is Easy tested this and found that it is not true. Maybe someone could find the link for me. 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=We-nxljgnw4

This is the Hard Is Easy video - a big conclusion is that the gri gri catching depends on having brake strand tension, albeit not much is needed.

I have full faith in a gri gri to work. I do it all the time when scrubbing routes and working beta. I have fallen thousands and thousands of times on them (all the iterations of GG's,lifeguard,etc).
I never worry about it. I fully trust a GG to do its job when cammed. The only thing that would happen sometimes on skinnier ropes would be a snail pace creep down the line on my really worn units.
I finally wore out my very first GG(2007-8?).... haven't seen a lot of folks wear through the cam before the side plate.

Secondly, IMO, the hard is easy video is not good (wont offer my critique as its not relevant here) and not relatable to tending a GG in TRS style, or relevant to the fact OP is wondering about safety of just hanging on a cammed GG on a fixed line.

Ben Zartmanwrote:

The grigri was designed specifically to engage hands-free, so that a belayer could be fast asleep and still catch a fall. 

A friend of mine decked from 45 feet up because another friend didn't have his hand on the brake strand. I saw it happen with my own eyes. Funny how Petzl says to never take your brake hand off of the rope when using a GriGri. 

SpaceX's Starship is also designed to be a rocket, but sometimes it's a bomb instead.

i either throw in quick knot if i am going to be tinkering for a bit, or i do a couple quick leg wraps if it is just momentarily.