Titen HDs?

Hello Bolters,
I went down a rabbit hole regarding the Titen HD screws. Would love advice, using them to equip an FA. Hand drilling because rules… what’s everyone’s experience been? Will be placing the short skinny bois in Granite then ideally pulling them once the line is sussed and reusing the holes with better hardware. Biggest concern I’m having regards hand screwing them in so anyone with experience with using a socket inlue of an adjustable spanner or box wrench. Thanks in advance!

a lot of it will depend on the granite (hardness).  i would definitely go with a ratchet/socket.  you may need to hammer in the first two or so threads to get things started.

Am not sure what you mean by "reusing the holes with better hardware", unless you mean longer, fatter screws. 

Anyway, I have only placed them with a power drill on rap, but a fellow I know who puts up lots of routes ground up on granite slab will first drill shallow holes for the "shorties", which are 3/8" x 1 3/4" on lead and then after finishing the pitch will lower down, unscrew them, drill the same hole deeper to 3 1/2" and then screw in the longer screws (also 3/8" diameter). 

I always screw them in by hand with a 14 mm socket wrench, though an easier fit is with a 9/16". I also flare out the start of the hole when I drill to make it easier to start them. So far, I've never had to use a hammer and have put in over a hundred.

(Edit to change: I don't use a socket wrench, but the common box-type wrench that completely surrounds the screw end. I've seen it called a "box-ended wrench".) 

What's your definition of skinny? I've placed a handful of 1/4" and a couple 3/8" in limestone, so by no means an expert. I had no issues with the 3/8" using a ratchet. About 50% of the 1/4" would have the threads strip without biting into the rock using both a ratchet and an impact driver. I've since given up on those entirely. Small sample size and much different rock, ymmv

I got 1/4” ones. Fingers crossed they don’t suck. They are 1 1/7” long and I’m hoping to reuse the holes to upsize to 3/8x 2 1/4 for a stainless wedge bolt. I’m wondering if flaring the base of the hole(ie chiseling the exterior edge) would allow the screw to get started easier. This is for rap bolting but I’m hoping if it works to use these for ground up exploratory development. Ideally I’d just wedge bolts as they’re cheaper. I’m looking for a quicker way to equip ground up routes and I’ve had enough of a headache pulling old buttonheads to try to find a better option.

I think the answer is 8mm Petzl Coueur Pulse removable bolts for ground up development.  

That’s a little out my price range as I’m bolting routes that are longer including some pitches that are gonna require many bolts. So far I’ve placed about 10? I’m gonna try adding a washer. Eventually I want to source a small o ring to hold the screw on the hanger for conveniency when rummaging around in my bolt kit. 

I had never seen these before,  I just picked some of these "Cobra Tork" up at home depot. They were a little cheaper than Tapcons or Simpson Titens:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Cobra-Anchors-Cobra-Tork-5-16-in-x-3-in-Zinc-Plated-Concrete-Screw-Anchors-4-Pack-966NZ/333940096

They're very similar to a Simpson Titen HD

Jay Gustafwrote:

So far I’ve placed about 10? I’m gonna try adding a washer. Eventually I want to source a small o ring to hold the screw on the hanger for conveniency when rummaging around in my bolt kit. 

I wouldn't use a washer, since the underside of the head of concrete screws are ridged to bite into the hanger.  

If you use a 3/8" concrete screw with these hangers, they thread right on and dont fall off in your pack:

And the resulting hole is perfect for re-use with an 8mm glue in, like the Raumer Antrax or Lappas Meteora. 

https://hownot2.com/products/stainless-steel-removable-bolts?_pos=5&_psq=remov&_ss=e&_v=1.0

22 bucks!

M Mwrote:

https://hownot2.com/products/stainless-steel-removable-bolts?_pos=5&_psq=remov&_ss=e&_v=1.0

22 bucks!

Use these! They kick ass

M Mwrote:

https://hownot2.com/products/stainless-steel-removable-bolts?_pos=5&_psq=remov&_ss=e&_v=1.0

22 bucks!

Removable bolts like these are mainly only a better option if the rock is too hard for screws to cut into (like hard granite).

They're not a bad option if you plan on drilling a bunch of holes on top of a cliff and want to have options for multiple toproping lines, but the again, concrete screws work pretty dang well for that, too!

thanks for all the follow ups yall! Here’s my update. I placed roughly 20? Used them and then was in a crunch to try to lead the route and surprised myself by sending it first go. Maybe motivated to not test falling on them. They worked ok in hard granite but I definitely had 3 fail while torquing them in. Kinda scary, not sure how they would hold up in a fall. I was hoping to find a better solution to using buttonheads but for the effort to install/remove them it almost seems like I might be better off stick with wedge bolts. I still want to try upsizing the hole to 7mm and seeing if that allows them to go in a little easier. Next season I’ll go back and pull all the screws and redrill the holes out to 3/8s. I still personally see a great use case for installing the 3/8” ones as temporary anchors for top down crag development or bolting in softer rock. Cheers! I guess I’ll update yall about how the progress goes with upsizing holes and eventually the route will be published. Thanks Bolters!

Jim Daywrote:

Removable bolts like these are mainly only a better option if the rock is too hard for screws to cut into (like hard granite).

They're not a bad option if you plan on drilling a bunch of holes on top of a cliff and want to have options for multiple toproping lines, but the again, concrete screws work pretty dang well for that, too!

I've used the screws quite a bit and while they do work pretty good on the first go it seems that the threads don't grab nearly as well on the second go. Maybe softer rock is easier on them?

I also can't imagine putting these in without an impact driver

My experience with concrete screws is that they work great most of the time on the first try unless they don't.. in which case the hole is stripped out and too loose for a solid placement.  What I have always done with ground up bolting is place real bolts. The go to for hand drilling bintd was stainless 3/8" x2 1/4" 5 piece. Totally truck in good rock. I also placed a bunch of 3/8" x3" stainless wedge bolts by hand. It sucks but it works..  builds character and calf strength. 

Jim Daywrote:

Removable bolts like these are mainly only a better option if the rock is too hard for screws to cut into (like hard granite).

They're not a bad option if you plan on drilling a bunch of holes on top of a cliff and want to have options for multiple toproping lines, but the again, concrete screws work pretty dang well for that, too!

I see no reason that screws would be better in soft rock. You can just slap in 10mm wedge bolts after your done with these, no second power tool to make them quick, no need to upsize the hole, no worry about them stripping out. I have used them extensively, and I will say with a great deal of conviction that I have no reason to ever place a 3/8ths screw. These are just better in the removable use case.

Oliver Dattilowrote:

I see no reason that screws would be better in soft rock. You can just slap in 10mm wedge bolts after your done with these, no second power tool to make them quick, no need to upsize the hole, no worry about them stripping out. I have used them extensively, and I will say with a great deal of conviction that I have no reason to ever place a 3/8ths screw. These are just better in the removable use case.

Cost.  For the cost of a single removal bolt, you can buy enough concrete screws to equip a whole route. Also you don't have to clean the hole to install a concrete screw, which makes them better for lead placements imo. 

i have never had to use an impact drill to install a concrete screw in limestone. Just a regular ratcheting socket wrench

Last weekend, I lead a new climb, placing 4 of the 3/8"x4" Titens as I went up. I topped out the climb and lowered off a tree, and replaced all 4 bolts (plus 2 additional for top anchors) with Lappas 8mmx100mm glue ins.

No additional drilling was required, just unscrewed the concrete screws, cleaned out the holes and put in the glue ins.  When I got to the ground, I pulled the rope and the route was done!

Concrete screws are ideal for limestone.  Hard granite will wear out the first couple of cutting threads, sometimes resulting in the bolt binding halfway in and possibly shearing the head off (more likely to happen with 1/4" or 5/16" screws, probably won't happen with 3/8" or larger).

But with limestone, usually both the bolt and hole are reusable after installing and removing the screw.  If you do it enough times, the hole might degrade to the point that the rock strips.

For the cost and in limestone, 3/8" and 1/2" concrete screws are king! 

Here are a couple videos I made for installing concrete screws, and replacing with glue ins

Jim Daywrote:

...

Concrete screws are ideal for limestone.  Hard granite will wear out the first couple of cutting threads, sometimes resulting in the bolt binding halfway in and possibly shearing the head off (more likely to happen with 1/4" or 5/16" screws, probably won't happen with 3/8" or larger).

I've been placing the 3/8" galvanized screws in solid granite for about 8 years without any binding issues, always using a wrench to install. For the stainless-steel ones, we instead found that the ss 316 screws could be very hard to hand screw in, presumably due to the cutting threads sometimes being on a slightly misaligned end. (This is only an issue with the stainless ones.) So, my partner first screws in a zinc-plated screw, removes it, and then reinserts a ss screw to avoid this binding issue. I've instead stuck with the galvanized, knowing that I can just go up with a wrench and replace them in a minute if they noticeably corrode. 

Jim Daywrote:

Cost.  For the cost of a single removal bolt, you can buy enough concrete screws to equip a whole route. Also you don't have to clean the hole to install a concrete screw, which makes them better for lead placements imo. 

i have never had to use an impact drill to install a concrete screw in limestone. Just a regular ratcheting socket wrench

Last weekend, I lead a new climb, placing 4 of the 3/8"x4" Titens as I went up. I topped out the climb and lowered off a tree, and replaced all 4 bolts (plus 2 additional for top anchors) with Lappas 8mmx100mm glue ins.

No additional drilling was required, just unscrewed the concrete screws, cleaned out the holes and put in the glue ins.  When I got to the ground, I pulled the rope and the route was done!

Concrete screws are ideal for limestone.  Hard granite will wear out the first couple of cutting threads, sometimes resulting in the bolt binding halfway in and possibly shearing the head off (more likely to happen with 1/4" or 5/16" screws, probably won't happen with 3/8" or larger).

But with limestone, usually both the bolt and hole are reusable after installing and removing the screw.  If you do it enough times, the hole might degrade to the point that the rock strips.

For the cost and in limestone, 3/8" and 1/2" concrete screws are king! 

You definitely don't need to clean holes for these while placing on lead, ask me how I know. You can then replace them later with mechanical bolts without redrilling, which is WAY less faff and much cheaper. In fact, I would wager that within two routes you would save more money using mechanical bolts vs glueins. They offer far more versatility, and pay for themselves quickly because they offer more options with final placements.   

Oliver Dattilowrote:

You definitely don't need to clean holes for these while placing on lead, ask me how I know. You can then replace them later with mechanical bolts without redrilling, which is WAY less faff and much cheaper. In fact, I would wager that within two routes you would save more money using mechanical bolts vs glueins. They offer far more versatility, and pay for themselves quickly because they offer more options with final placements.   

If you're not cleaning the hole for a removable bolt, you're accepting a weaker placement.  A concrete screw is just as strong whether you clean the hole or not.  

As for mechanical vs glue ins, yes I'm sure it's nice if you're going straight from a 10mm removable bolt to a 10mm wedge bolt or whatever.  I never use 10mm wedge bolts because they're not great in limestone.  I think your methods are better for really hard rock, if you're willing to spend ~$200-$300 up front for a bunch of removeable bolts