Bastille | Northcutt Start, missing pin: replace with a glue-in bolt?

For those of you who didn't peek into the ACE guide lines referred to by Mike Schlauss on p. 1 of this thread. As I read it, I think the following paragraph is the most interesting:

"3.3.1 As of 2012, neither the Park nor ACE recommends replacing pitons with pitons as the climbing community no longer climbs in a style, i.e. with hammers, so as to maintain fixed pins as safe and appropriate fixed gear. If a fixed piton is deemed unsafe, an applicant may apply to ACE to remove it. If good, solid natural gear cannot be placed in the same location, the individual should apply to ACE to replace the pin with a bolt."

As seen in Greg's photos, there's a fairly featured crack in this place. The main question is if it takes "good, solid natural gear". 

Let stir some feathers here: 

Option 5. If the crack is too funky and it doesn't take good, reliable gear, let's chisel out a bomber #5 nut placement in the crack. No need for maintaining a bolt in the future! No visible impact. No "embarrasing" bolt next to a crack. A #5 nut is small enough that you can't use the placement as a fingerhold.

Patrikwrote:

Option 5. If the crack is too funky and it doesn't take good, reliable gear, chisel out a bomber #5 nut placement in the crack. No need for maintaining a bolt in the future! No visible impact. No "embarrasing" bolt next to a crack. A #5 nut is small enough that you can't use the placement as a fingerhold.

J W wrote:

Talk about ruffling the pot!

Re: good, solid natural gear. Does anyone know of a climber whose cam/nut ripped from this crack post-pin? Or is the only data point the one climber whose cam securely caught his fall?

I’m not sure this would really be a useful data point. Climbers rip gear out of perfectly good rock all the time due to a myriad of factors (kicking the cam, not paying enough attention, etc.).

So even if someone had ripped gear I don’t think that would necessarily be a solid argument for the bolt. I say this as someone who is pro bolt in this case. 

I’ve been enjoying this thread, thanks for all of the interesting viewpoints. If I may make a suggestion, how about leaving the climb in its current state for the rest of this season, if placing gear becomes the new SOP, then consider this to be the best way forward. If the climb falls into obscurity, place a bolt and move on. As far as I know, there is no time imperative in deciding how to proceed. To me, restraint and patience is often the way to respect our shared resources. 

I don't think there's any chance the Northcutt Start of the Bastille Crack is going to ever become obscure. 

Long Rangerwrote:

I don't think there's any chance the Northcutt Start of the Bastille Crack is going to ever become obscure. 

Okay, maybe I should have said “falls into disuse, or is infrequently climbed”. Do you have any opinion regarding leaving the climb as it is for a while and allowing actual practice to be the deciding factor, or is my phrasing your main point of contention?

Daniel Shivelywrote:

Okay, maybe I should have said “falls into disuse, or is infrequently climbed”. Do you have any opinion regarding leaving the climb as it is for a while and allowing actual practice to be the deciding factor, or is my phrasing your main point of contention?

OK Mr. Fancy Writin', I shall offer you my retort: if (as if) you're not aware, the climb can be set up as a top rope using the normal start of the Bastille Crack. The climb is also part of  Colorado climbing lore, being contentiously one of the hardest climbs in the State at the time of its first ascent as well as a prime example of a historical sandbag done on a dare. If you would like reference to that please see Achey's book, "Climb!" Volume 1.

It's also located right off the f'n road. 

So given the history and mythology, its documentation, and access -- and oh: The 3 star (and PG) rating in Levin's guidebook, yeah: keep it climbable. As I've written, I'm for the #4 option, and gave a reasonable argument for my pov, replete with disclaimer. 

If this was some backwoods chosspile, I don't think Mr. Man would even think the need to bring the issue up to the community At Large. Appreciate Man and all he does, 

Edit: my comment quota has been met (thank gawd) but to reply to the comment below: 

Bruh, I'm not advocating for a rushed timeline -- this is voted on by Ace not by MP and is essentially done by volunteers. They'll get to it when they get to it. In the meantime, contribute money or your time to your local climbing advocacy group. 

Long Rangerwrote:

OK Mr. Fancy Writin', I shall offer you my retort: if (as if) you're not aware, the climb can be set up as a top rope using the normal start of the Bastille Crack. The climb is also part of  Colorado climbing lore, being contentiously one of the hardest climbs in the State at the time of its first ascent as well as a prime example of a historical sandbag done on a dare. If you would like reference to that please see Achey's book, "Climb!" Volume 1.

It's also located right off the f'n road. 

So given the history and mythology, its documentation, and access -- and oh: The 3 star (and PG) rating in Levin's guidebook, yeah: keep it climbable. As I've written, I'm for the #4 option, and gave a reasonable argument for my pov, replete with disclaimer. 

If this was some backwoods chosspile, I don't think Mr. Man would even think the need to bring the issue up to the community At Large. Appreciate Man and all he does, 

A quick perusal of this thread seems to indicate Michael Butts reply about placing and falling on a cam currently has 20 upvotes, Steve Levin’s reply advocating a bolt has 22 upvotes. So far this indicates a fairly equal split of opinions expressed. With the real possibility for top down placement and even bounce testing of a cam, it seems that safety minded or climbers wanting a fixed piece have this option. If the cam is indeed good and at least our report from Michael Butts indicate it is, the climb should retain its pg rating. Considering this information, wouldn’t my suggesting of restraint and patience be a viable option until more feedback on the nature of the cam placement and the quality of the climbing experience is known?

Everett Johnson wrote:

Respectfully, no. The whole point of this thread is to discuss and help come to a conclusion. If you need to climb the route before submitting a vote on ACE's website (I assume that is how the decision will be made) then by all means, go for it.  

I didn’t say that climbing this pitch was required to vote or have an opinion, but how is it possible to form a strong opinion before knowing about the gear placement in question? If the goal is to simply replace all aging pitons with bolts then that is grounds for having a conversation about that. The OP listed several options for this climb, I believe that restraint and patience will provide for the opportunity to arrive at the “best” outcome.  It’s weird to me, that advocating for restraint and patience seems to draw ire from some contributors to this thread. 

I suggest collecting more data for the gear placement.  Set up a mock lead for the route (with a lead line and a TR line with two belayers.) Take up an assortment of small cams (offset, non-offset, different manufacturers) and take a bunch of whips on the lead line (made safe by the toprope line.)  Any data around gear failures or difficulty to properly place the gear should help make an informed decision.

The ideal number of MP forum pages for discourse on this topic is three, it turns out. 

When I climbed Northcutt, the ring on the piton was stretched to the point it was hard to clip.  I didn’t even clip it.  I placed wires before and after it and fell and was fine.  
If there is now a .1/.2 placement, I feel like this climb is plenty safe enough and a bolt is silly. Clipping a bolt at the crux on modern shoes with modern gear below you is not very similar to the FA experience. Nor is it that similar to the experience of climbing up to a suspect relic and having to decide what to do.

Putting a bolt anywhere up there is very similar to chipping.  Strong vote for option 1.

There are other pins in Eldo I feel very different about.  I also feel that many routes warrant bolted anchors.  I’m not a purist, but c’mon.  It goes on gear!

I strongly advocate for option #1. I have several reasons: 

- I was able to get a good clean gear placement: A bomber black totem about 3ft to the left of where the pin used to be. This placement basically keeps you on TR. In the event of a fall, you might swing a bit more than previously, but the fall is still super safe. 

-  The absence of fixed gear does not make the climb more dangerous. 

I am also not a purist who wants everything to be traditional and lack fixed protection, there are many circumstances that a bolt could and maybe should be placed but this is not one. 

I climbed it this weekend with a partner. Placed a #0 mastercam and backed up with a #0.2 Z4. I didn't pull the move the lowered off. 

My partner went up and took 2 good whips onto the #0 mastercam. Then he finished the pitch.

We both think option #1 is reasonable. It will be a harder onsight for sure, with having to determine and place the gear. Placing a bolt may keep the route closer to the experience of the route in its previous condition.

That 0 mastercam looks (and behaves) pretty bomber. Out of curiosity, how strenuous is it to place? (Not that it affects the bolting decision either way) 

Michael Goodhuewrote:

I climbed it this weekend with a partner. Placed a #0 mastercam and backed up with a #0.2 Z4. I didn't pull the move the lowered off. 

My partner went up and took 2 good whips onto the #0 mastercam. Then he finished the pitch.

We both think option #1 is reasonable. It will be a harder onsight for sure, with having to determine and place the gear. Placing a bolt may keep the route closer to the experience of the route in its previous condition.

Good seeing you guys out there checking out the gear this weekend!  Did Noah get slammed into the corner when he whipped?

Michael Goodhuewrote:

I climbed it this weekend with a partner. Placed a #0 mastercam and backed up with a #0.2 Z4. I didn't pull the move the lowered off. 

Is it possible to place a small nut in the crack above the cam in the constriction?

I'd like to chime in here and give my 2c. I led this onsite and didn't place any gear in the horizontal seam, and was totally fine. I didn't even know there used to be a pin there lol. Although I did not fall, I think a fall anywhere before pulling all the way around the arrette would be rough, but not very bad at all. I have since repeated it 4 times sans pin with gear at my feet, pulling the crux, and been chilling every time. I don't think replacing the pin would be totally unreasonable by Eldo standards; however, it seems as though you can get good gear in the pin scar. I also recall that on one of my repeats, I did madame guillotine into Northcutt and placed a black totem higher up in the crack that was very good.

Gregger Manwrote:

This will probably be a dumpster fire of a discussion, but I'd like to see what folks think.

Options:

1. do nothing. Leading the route is currently a different experience without the pin.
2. hammer in another angle and hope for the best. A slightly sawed-off pin might drive a little tighter? Still won't last too long.
3. drill a 1/2" hole right into the space where the pin was and glue in a 6mm x 100mm twisted leg bolt. (or 150mm if the public is squeamish about the nature of that hole) 
4. drill a hole on the face ~6" above the crack and place a bolt as per normal.

Discuss.

How about #5, if it is feasible (I have not climbed this route): drill the crack out just enough to make a bomber nut placement but not enough to provide a new fingerlock. 

As long as one is open to drilling, as options #3 and #4 indicate, I think option #5 also ought to be considered.

No modern bolt please.  That would change the experience the most.  

Twisty glue in could work.

If the gear is actually good, then this might be best.  And to add a bias, this should be decided by those that actually fall on the gear, not those that casually stroll up it, place a piece, and cruise on by.  I think that was what happened to Northwest Corner.