Pay to play climbing events on shared, public land?

Dirtbag Betawrote:

Climbing festivals on public land are basically mining, logging, and oil drilling with better branding. 

You do understand that mining, logging, and drillers use gigantic machines that are specifically built to cut and move earth?

One backhoe could do more damage in a day than a thousand noobs hangdogging for a year.

apogeewrote:

Adam, while I essentially agree with your post, you seem to suggest in one paragraph that other user groups have far more economic influence than the paltry economic contributions and impact of climbers, then finish saying that climber festivals and large guided groups likely have a large impact in subsidizing public land improvements. 

I find myself more aligned with the first part of this than the second- the most significant benefit LCO's have in a local climbing area is their ongoing demonstrated stewardship and care, and the goodwill that it exhibits to land managers. These land managers are people, and they remember groups that show up regularly and positively contribute- this increases the likelihood that climbers voices will have a seat at the table when policy changes are being developed. (The notion expressed far upthread that such LCO events are a negative impact on these areas is short-sighted and trolling-ly cynical.)

Oh, I don't think climbers provide that much economic impact regardless if we're acting individually or coming together in an organized manner. I'm simply saying that those organized events are one of the few ways we provide the land managers with at least some money (and again, money talks).

I agree wholeheartedly that if we show we are stewards, are mindful of our impact, and promote sustainable recreation that certainly helps as well. It's much easier to point to the LCO led clean ups and trail building efforts during events to provide evidence of our benefits as opposed to trying to convince people that climbers (in general) aren't bad for the land. I'm not sure if that positive image reinforcement is more valuable than the few pennies we provide compared to other user groups, but I'm quite certain Pay to Play events do more good than bad.

Daniel Shivelywrote:

Some valid points here. If your events are required to pay 3% of revenue, it seems as if guidebook providers, film producers, and social media influencers should pay too. 

THIS.

Especially "Select" guidebooks that concentrate climbers on the classics degrading the route, base and trail etc.

After 50 years of climbing I have witnessed many "classics" degrade into polished and greasy garbage all thanks to "Select" guidebook writers.

I’ll bite. I think at the end of the day, climbers should expect to “pay to play”  much in the same way as fishing/hunting. I think this is especially true at areas of cultural significance or places that have potential access issues. I am specifically thinking of places like Indian Creek. We can talk about how special the places are and how we “respect” the culture of those that lived there for generations but at the end of the day, it’s a disingenuous argument because we still climb there.  Charging ~$10 a day to climb isn’t going to break the bank for many but would go a lot further than painted anchors and letters regarding the intrinsic value of nature. 

sam murraywrote:

Charging ~$10 a day to climb…

What a perfectly horrible thought.

Jay Crewwrote:

good one, you got me.. 5/10 on the troll scale

Filthy casual.

Daniel Shivelywrote:

Not sure how gyms are responsible for pay to attend events, unless you are implying that festivals are simply gym culture in an outdoor setting.

Change is non stop. Are you triggered by an internet convo about the impact of change? Conversations create ideas and drive solutions.

A lot of these big festivals have many many “gym to crag” type clinics. Intro to cleaning anchors…etc etc. At least the craggin classics in the US. They’re absolutely going after a certain crowd. Squamish festival put on by Arc’ seems a bit catered to a higher level.

The rise in gyms, made rises all over the place. More impact…so on. 

Adam Flemingwrote:

Oh, I don't think climbers provide that much economic impact regardless if we're acting individually or coming together in an organized manner. I'm simply saying that those organized events are one of the few ways we provide the land managers with at least some money (and again, money talks).

I think, at least in certain areas, climbers have a more substantial economic impact than you realize---a positive one for the local economy, especially in areas that may otherwise be 'struggling'---places such as the Red River Gorge. I believe that there have been some studies that have confirmed this--and even without such studies, for one who has been visiting there for years, the changes are obvious.

I recall an event, based around a Lynn Hill slide show, in the mid-80s, near the New River Gorge, put on by the local Chamber of Commerce, that featured a legendary all-you-can-eat buffet, that fed the dirtbag climbers in attendance for days afterward!!!! We all felt that the Chamber misread the 'climbing culture' and that we would not make much of a contribution to the local economy. While it may have taken a while, but it turns out that they were correct and now, four decades later, climbers are clearly having a significant positive impact on the local economy.

Alan Rubinwrote:

I think, at least in certain areas, climbers have a more substantial economic impact than you realize---a positive one for the local economy,

I second what Alan says. In  Penticton, British Columbia, it was one of the pivotal issues that enabled the creation of the Skaha Provincial Park and guaranteed access.

Alan Rubinwrote:

I think, at least in certain areas, climbers have a more substantial economic impact than you realize---a positive one for the local economy, especially in areas that may otherwise be 'struggling'---places such as the Red River Gorge. I believe that there have been some studies that have confirmed this--and even without such studies, for one who has been visiting there for years, the changes are obvious.

I recall an event, based around a Lynn Hill slide show, in the mid-80s, near the New River Gorge, put on by the local Chamber of Commerce, that featured a legendary all-you-can-eat buffet, that fed the dirtbag climbers in attendance for days afterward!!!! We all felt that the Chamber misread the 'climbing culture' and that we would not make much of a contribution to the local economy. While it may have taken a while, but it turns out that they were correct and now, four decades later, climbers are clearly having a significant positive impact on the local economy.

I agree completely. Miguel's and The Red are way different than the vast majority of climbing areas. I haven't been, but it seems like climbers are the main user group for that area which is not the case nearly anywhere else.

Adam Flemingwrote:

I agree completely. Miguel's and The Red are way different than the vast majority of climbing areas. I haven't been, but it seems like climbers are the main user group for that area which is not the case nearly anywhere else.

Here is peer reviewed study - OUTDOOR RECREATION AND RURAL TRANSITIONS IN CENTRAL APPALACHIA: REVISITING THE ECONOMIC IMPACT OF ROCK CLIMBING IN KENTUCKY’S RED RIVER GORGE

Red River George  Climbing Coalition  has the above article condensed into this pdf - https://rrgcc.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/RRG-EIS-2020-final-report-62121.pdf 

Some Bullet Points:

• EKU’s Division of Regional Economic Assessment and Modeling (DREAM) conducted a 2020 economic impact study of climber expenditures in the Red River Gorge climbing region.
• The researchers estimate climbers visiting the Red River Gorge spend an estimated $8.7 million annually with over 102,000 climber visits per year.
• On a typical trip, climbers spend an estimated $74 per person per trip plus an additional $5-$40 for lodging.
• Climber expenditures support $2.6 million in local wages and an estimated 104 jobs in a typical year.
• Results indicate the Red's climbers are highly aware of Leave No Trace knowledge which helps limit their impact on natural areas.

J W wrote:

Late to the conversation, but so much of the thread reminds me of this.

Is it the raping of public lands or the hypocrisy regarding the justifications for raping the public lands that you’re reminded of?

J W wrote:

I’m reminded of how silly it is to say that hypocrisy is a greater concern than the degradation of public spaces, that a group’s penchant for being holietr-than-thou (whether this claim is indeed true has not been established) is somehow worse than the aggressive resource extraction, pollution, and wholesale despoiling of entire landscapes.

Otherwise, there’s been some rather thought-provoking discussion with insightful points offered on many sides.

Thank you for prompting the conversation, Daniel. I think the issue is important, one that appears too complicated for me to weigh in on without additional consideration, other than to point out the one obvious absurdity early in the thread.

I hear you and there is a spectrum of degradation that at the highest level consists of actions that permanently alter the landscape (mining, heavy handed forestry),  to large, organized climbing festivals, to individuals climbers, hikers, etc. and that all levels of impact can be critically examined. And yeah, the hypocrisy from certain groups, in my opinion, doesn’t further or promote legitimate conservation efforts.

But don’t get involved with politics. That stuff is a spiritual dead end and can’t possibly have any influence on this issue.

Has anyone in the thread drawn a parallel to pro sports stadiums subsidized by taxpayer funds yet?

John Clarkwrote:

Has anyone in the thread drawn a parallel to pro sports stadiums subsidized by taxpayer funds yet?

That would be quite the drift, but it’s a topic worthy of discussion. If climbing comps were held in the taxpayer subsidized stadiums, then let’s have at it.

Reply to Apogee:  the problem with politics is that with enough “votes” any position can be justified and legitimized. See history for proof of this concept. The invasion of Iraq is a glaring example.