Tuolumne Bolt Chopping

Gloweringwrote:

If it was 20 years ago when I spent a lot of time in Yosemite, I'd replace the bolts (at least the anchors). Unless someone gave me evidence that line had been free soloed before. But I'm lucky if I get to Yosemite a few times a year nowadays and I'm not spending that time fixing some anonymous coward's botch job.

The women that expected the anchor when I was there, were talking about downclimbing it, before I offered my TR to retrieve their anchor. They were very set on not leaving any gear. So chances are they would've down free soloed it if I was not there. Yes, they would have made that choice to take that risk, but if someone slipped and died / got hurt part of the blame for the situation goes to the anonymous coward.

Can’t you just go up to the regular walk-off?

Marc801 Cwrote:

Can’t you just go up to the regular walk-off?

She could have climbed all the way back up the ropes to get to the regular walk off. I don't know why she didn't do that. 

Tuolumne.
Some bolts.

Relevant enough and so much better than this thread:

M Awrote:

I've heard of a pretty new bolted crack close to the road on a formation with some hard trad climbing. I wonder why it hasn't been chopped?

Matt, it's been poorly alluded to :)

And it seems everyone is in agreement, hard climbs (even cracks) can be bolted. Then in 30 years when it isn't so hard, it will be old, and you can't chop old routes. 

Daniel Shivelywrote:

‘VICTIMS”

If someone removes or destroys a carefully and lovingly crafted route identification plaque in IC, would you consider the creator of the plaque to be a VICTIM  too?  What if a plaque was removed and a climber expecting the plaque to be there gets on the wrong route and has a traumatic experience, are they VICTIMS too?

Is not my sympathy for all of these unfortunate “VICTIMS” contribution enough? 

Legal hand drilled anchors are a resource the community depends on.

Grafitti is never welcome in National Monuments or Parks. End. Of. Story.

Anyone that needs a street sign to find a rock climb in the age of GPS should stay in Moab.

Sprayloard Overstokerwrote:

Legal hand drilled anchors are a resource the community depends on.

Grafitti is never welcome in National Monuments or Parks. End. Of. Story.

Anyone that needs a street sign to find a rock climb in the age of GPS should stay in Moab.

Drilled anchors are definitely not necessary for climbing to exist, the “community” enjoys the convenience. How about a nice via ferrata installed up a few domes and walls? I imagine many people would love and cherish such a resource. A via ferrata is a safe way for “new” climbers to learn and enjoy some nature.

“Anyone that needs a street sign to find a rock climb in the age of GPS should stay in Moab.” What about luddites and the financially challenged?

At the end of the day, if climbers want to respect community and consensus, where do the chopped routes and convenience anchors fit into the equation?

”It’s a privilege to be allowed to place, use, and maintain fixed anchors (e.g., bolts,pins,slings, etc.) in wilderness. Sometimes bolts or other fixed gear might be needed as a last resort.  When establishing routes, climbers should use natural protection whenever it is available. Once a bolt is placed, the nature of the experience is changed, and other climbers may no longer have the opportunity to attempt the route without it.  Let’s take care to keep these walls and domes as close to their natural condition as possible so that future generations can experience the essence of Wilderness climbing.”    From the Yosemite Climbers Association website

”You can’t eat your cake and have it too”

Daniel Shivelywrote:

At the end of the day, if climbers want to respect community and consensus, where do the chopped routes and convenience anchors fit into the equation?

”It’s a privilege to be allowed to place, use, and maintain fixed anchors (e.g., bolts,pins,slings, etc.) in wilderness. Sometimes bolts or other fixed gear might be needed as a last resort.  When establishing routes, climbers should use natural protection whenever it is available. Once a bolt is placed, the nature of the experience is changed, and other climbers may no longer have the opportunity to attempt the route without it.  Let’s take care to keep these walls and domes as close to their natural condition as possible so that future generations can experience the essence of Wilderness climbing.”    From the Yosemite Climbers Association website

”You can’t eat your cake and have it too”

Every thing needs to be looked at on a case by case basis. This wasn't just chopped convenience anchors. It was a two pitch route with anchors in the middle that doubled as convenience anchors. And even if it was just convenience anchors if they prevent one death (granted everyone is responsible for their own safety) than a couple holes and bolts in the middle of 270' of rock than only other climbers will ever see is a small price to pay in my opinion. I don't think those anchors helped reduce environmental impact at all, but that's another reason to install 'convenience' anchors.

No one was doing the climb before the bolts were added. At least I haven't seen any mention that it had been. So no one was having any experience to be changed. The bolts were placed, then there was a route for novice leaders. Now it seems some anonymous person decided that experience isn't worthy and removed it. Yet the bolted 5.8 and 5.10 routes nearby remain.

I sometimes think it's kind of sad that a number of good routes were free soloed back in the day in Tuolumne and they would be good routes for moderate climbers with a reasonable number of bolts (e.g. PG rated climbs) and would get a LOT of ascents. Instead they see at best a handful of ascents a year. But that's the first ascent principle. Many people agree it may not be perfect but it's the best guideline we have to keep the majority of routes in the condition they should be in. And again it goes both ways. Unless someone stated that route was free soloed previously, it's an FA and you should leave it as the FA did it. I think there is a trade off between establishing routes with few bolts so people can have a bold experience, vs. a route with more bolts so more people can experience it. And Tuolumne has a lot of routes in the prior category and less in the latter.

This area was definitely solo'd by many people prior to the "new" routes being put up.
No one bothered to name them or claim them because they were quite mellow. 

Jabroni McChufferson wrote:

Anyone do the butt-scoot off daff dome? 

Yup, my preferred descent for routes that finish in that area. 

Yosemite, like many National Parks, has roads, lodging, power grids, developed campgrounds, sewer systems, helicopters, pack trains, trail crews, shows and lectures, dining facilities, bridges for vehicles and others deep in the Wilderness, law enforcement agencies, crosswalks, bus service, garbage trucks, gas stations, traffic cameras, active quarries, power systems, water siphons, communication lines, radio repeaters, cell towers, stores, maintenance yards, extensive parking lots and pullouts, old abandoned trails, closed trails, rerouted trails, high sierra camps, helicopter resupply, bars, ev charging stations, picnic grounds, a jail, and medical clinic.

All this to say, nothing stays the same and "development" experiences meaningful change.

But all hail the first accentionist, as interpreted for and by the lucky few climbers. The other 4 million visitors can kick rocks, not like climbers who live by a different wilderness code, a self policing ironic state of being.

Not a great look when your first ascent was already someone else's first descent.  

If these anchors do go back in, then I'd propose that people not be encouraged to use them as a rappel route off the dome. The "the bolts should stay because now people depend on them" argument is a poor one. In like 60+ years of very frequent ascents, I'm not aware of anyone ever dying on the descent of SPD. 

It'd be great if we could all find a happy medium ground between the Shawn Snyders and the "every bolt is precious" type of extremists. 

Bb Ccwrote:

Yosemite, like many National Parks, has roads, lodging, power grids, developed campgrounds, sewer systems, helicopters, pack trains, trail crews, shows and lectures, dining facilities, bridges for vehicles and others deep in the Wilderness, law enforcement agencies, crosswalks, bus service, garbage trucks, gas stations, traffic cameras, active quarries, power systems, water siphons, communication lines, radio repeaters, cell towers, stores, maintenance yards, extensive parking lots and pullouts, old abandoned trails, closed trails, rerouted trails, high sierra camps, helicopter resupply, bars, ev charging stations, picnic grounds, a jail, and medical clinic.

All this to say, nothing stays the same and "development" experiences meaningful change.

You might get what you wish for if nobody stops Trump from privatizing our parks. Personally, I'd prefer they move in the opposite direction rather than make it a gym just because there's some other installations already present. 

I don't know exactly where the chopped line was, but it sure reminds me of something that happened on Stately many years back now. My partner and I were descending the walk off. About 2/3 of the way down, I noticed a roped party coming up a line adjacent to our descent path. I was super curious as I didn't know there was a route there at all. This wasn't below West Country, this was closer to the descent. 

While my partner continued straight down more or less, to the road I veered to descender's left to intercept the roped party. The leader had like a double rack of gear and his belayer looked new. I figured this as a training run or something, probably for both of them. As I walked down their way the leader dude ended up climbing higher than my position. The only walkable path meant I had to somehow cross their rope. 

Bear in mind I was walking, hands in pockets actually. And here is this dude with a double rack leading on the same slab, in the same place. By then I was closer to the belayer than the leader. I got to the rope, maybe 20 feet above her and said, 

"Excuse me." And stepped over their rope and continued down to the bottom, maybe 15 feet away from her. She gave me a look of dripping acid, for what I'd just done and I didn't blame her, then or now. It was a pretty dick thing to do. 

At least they didn't bolt that shit.

And it seems everyone is in agreement, hard climbs (even cracks) can be bolted.

Nope. But the Chopper's Code clearly states the chopper must be able to lead the route without the bolts, before chopping them. Pirates Code (which was bolted when, 15-years ago or something?) is likely to remain out of the chopper's reach, in that respect.

Brandon Rwrote:

Not a great look when your first ascent was already someone else's first descent.  

I laughed reading this.

If these anchors do go back in, then I'd propose that people not be encouraged to use them as a rappel route off the dome.

I agree. The walk off is pretty low key. For those that find it otherwise, it a good place for them to go. It's called experience. 

 The "the bolts should stay because now people depend on them" argument is a poor one. In like 60+ years of very frequent ascents, I'm not aware of anyone ever dying on the descent of SPD. 

It'd be great if we could all find a happy medium ground between the Shawn Snyders and the "every bolt is precious" type of extremists. 

An amazing amount of discussion for a bunch of insignificant routes. They are, however, useful. The route in question should go back in. It was just silliness to remove it. 

Those that say otherwise do have a point. But it's a point better applied to climbs that have greater significance. Where that line is, is arbitrary. But maybe that's worth a little discussion. 

Bb Ccwrote:

Yosemite, like many National Parks, has roads, lodging, power grids, developed campgrounds, sewer systems, helicopters, pack trains, trail crews, shows and lectures, dining facilities, bridges for vehicles and others deep in the Wilderness, law enforcement agencies, crosswalks, bus service, garbage trucks, gas stations, traffic cameras, active quarries, power systems, water siphons, communication lines, radio repeaters, cell towers, stores, maintenance yards, extensive parking lots and pullouts, old abandoned trails, closed trails, rerouted trails, high sierra camps, helicopter resupply, bars, ev charging stations, picnic grounds, a jail, and medical clinic.

All this to say, nothing stays the same and "development" experiences meaningful change.

But all hail the first accentionist, as interpreted for and by the lucky few climbers. The other 4 million visitors can kick rocks, not like climbers who live by a different wilderness code, a self policing ironic state of being.

I would be thrilled if all of the “amenities” and their support structure ceased to exist. If this bullshit is a necessary component for the 4 million visitors to appreciate nature, then yeah,  they can “kick rocks”. If “climbers” expect tightly bolted and  “safe” climbs, maybe  Yosemite/Tuolumne isn’t the place for them to learn. It’s beyond my comprehension how a climber would expect routes to be created for their competency level. Climbers have revered Tuolumne since climbing has existed here, and rose to the occasion, or came back later with some honed skills.  The austere nature of wild places and cliffs is the only equitable limit to visitation, not every place is suitable for every person.

Daniel Shivelywrote:

It’s interesting, that after 70 plus days, and 13 pages of wailing about the trauma inducing and life threatening forced walk off caused by the  bunkifying of new print beta, that no altruistic promoter of safety and equity has not replaced the bolts on these beloved and cherished routes.

I have even said upthread I will replace next time i'm chillin' in the meadows..... Rest assured I will be prepared to do the good work.
A busy life and not making it my current top priority to remedy a botch chop job, that time frame is anywhere from soon to later as life permits if someone else doesnt do the selfless act of restoring anothers route. Righting the wrong doesnt mean it has to happen in a certain timeframe to have the fact remain the chopper is coward who does work in the shadows. Its takes minuets to be a chopper, but potential hours or even days to remedy the situation properly.....I mean at leats if the chopper actually gve a shit they would pull the hardware and patch the holes.... but that would mean they actually care, rather than making a veiled "statment".
Thanks for the sarcastic hyperbole addition to the thread Daniel. You seem like a gem of a human.

Matt Nwrote:

This area was definitely solo'd by many people prior to the "new" routes being put up.
No one bothered to name them or claim them because they were quite mellow. 

The area was for sure. Especially the climb Jonah. But if someone doesn't say I free soloed a line 20 feet left of Jonah, who knows if anyone climbed that particular line? And without any record of it then someone could assume it's an FA. You could climb ANYWHERE on that slab, and I'm sure not every single possible line has been free soloed. 

Climbers have revered Tuolumne since climbing has existed here, and rose to the occasion, or came back later with some honed skills.  

A big part of why Tuolumne was developed in a bold fashion was the Valley was pretty much the center of hard climbing in the universe at that time. 5.11 climbers from the valley came up to Tuolumne in the summer and did things like free solo 5.9s or R rated climbs because they were easy for them. It wasn't exclusively because it was decided Tuolumne should be some bold only climbing zone. There's been a number of climbs put in since 2000 that are well protected by Tuolumne standards and few have been chopped. But they are a little harder climbs and harder to access. 

It'd be great if we could all find a happy medium ground between the Shawn Snyders and the "every bolt is precious" type of extremists.

I feel like that's where my position is. I've advocated for retro bolt removal, I'm opposed to adding bolts to Snake Dike even though one of the FAs is in favor, and I've chopped some retro bolts at a local wall. But I think these bolts weren't chopped for retaining challenge or environmental impact reasons, they were chopped because they were on an easy climb that's easy to get to and someone feels Tuolumne isn't for novice climbers, even though it's the second best climbing area in the world.

Jabroni McChufferson wrote:

Anyone do the butt-scoot off daff dome? 

Of course. Who hasn't?