Continue with onX Maps
Sign in with Facebook
Normalisation of Deviance (The Two Rope People Problem)
James -wrote: I don't. But I can, unfortunately, mention an occasion on which the undamaged rope didn't get an opportunity to save the day because the ground at the base of the crag intervened first. There seems no reason to assume that, had the mishap occurred further up the route - a multipitch - the second rope wouldn't have successfully fulfilled its remit in the normal manner. Now I think about it, though, I do recall reading in one of the climbing publications of the time, in one of the earlier pieces introducing western climbers to the impressively high levels of difficulty and boldness that for a long time had been relatively commonplace on the Elbsandstein towers of what was then East Germany, that Bernd Arnold had once managed to break one of his ropes in a big fall. There were no further details but the implication was that the other one had stopped him. Might have been a myth, of course - or a 'mythunderstanding'! |
|
https://edelrid.com/us-en/knowledge/knowledge-base/cut-resistance-of-ropes Not sure if i got the gist of this correctly, but seems to support other reports ive seen where rope diameter is LESS significant regarding cut resistance than is obvious. Overall construction, sheath treatment, and how weighted the system is seem like bigger considerations. ive climbed doubles off and on over the years and still have questions: The single rated double ropes i have still are rated for several falls, so while not recommended, hypothetically i should be able to lead on one? How do you determine if your rope has taken a fall? How serious/what factor should be considered to have counted as a fall? In most cases with doubles, im falling on one rope entirely or one much more than the other. The fall isnt being shared significantly by the other rope. In those cases where the load is shared, do you count a significant fall on both ropes? Any guidelines anyone can share as to when to retire? |
|
I've been climbing on half/twin ropes the last year a fair bit on ice, and a bit of rock and would say the biggest drawback I've noticed is the weight of clipping both ropes to a piece of pro if used as twins. Being 55m up a sustained steep ice pitch really gets the pump going, and I and my partners sometimes just start alternating into half rope technique. Otherwise, I've been surprised at how easy it's been to keep ropes from tangling or twisting. We always decide together at the beginning of a climb which rope is on which side, and I haven't had a situation yet where we have to figure out a rats nest. Dunno if I've just been getting lucky with that, but I'm very glad I bought a pair of half/twin ropes for ice and certain multipitch rock routes. |
James -wrote: |
Jimmy Brickerwrote: Apologies for not exactly answering your question I climbed a bit on a single half rope at a low standard on mountain routes. Then all half ropes were 9mm. Purely because once when we had only half ropes with us we found climbing at that standard more enjoyable without having to lug along the second rope (in the event of retreat we'd have had to mix abbing with down climbing). Not recommending this safety wise, but it suited us. Half ropes, not twin ropes, are tested singley anyway for number of falls held but using only 55kg IIRC. I've read that they should hold severe leader falls but less of them than a certified single rope. A possible advantage of a single half rope instead of a triple rated single of comparable weight is that the sheath will probably be a higher percentage and more durable. It's also interesting that if a leader fall is held on just one of the two ropes, while using half rope technique and a plaquette, the braking force is apparently significantly reduced compared to only one rope being held in the hand.. This will happen if the runners are widely spaced.. ' . |
Jimmy Brickerwrote: Are you talking about a triple rated rope? That can be used as a single, 1/2 or twin? The whole point of then is that you can use them in any of those configurations. what changes is the number of falls the are rated for and the impact force experienced. It’s completely “recommended” to use a triple rated rope as a single rope. That’s about the only way I use mine. It’s not just “hypothetical”. How do you determine if your rope has taken a fall? How serious/what factor should be considered to have counted as a fall? Ropes are rated for UIAA falls. Most climbers take hundreds of falls on a rope before they would ever take a severe enough fall to “count” as against the number of falls that the rope is rated for. There are dozens of articles on these topics ( fall factor, when to retire a rope etc. ) This is not the thread to repeat all that easily available information. |
|
I have done a few alpine climbs with a single half rope and felt totally fine. This is a single 7.8mm sterling.....  |
Nick Goldsmithwrote: Last time I did a single half rope (outside of a winter ridges) was a jolly day of 'diff' climbing i.e 5.feckall. Falling off wasn't even slightly likely until the party above dislodged a large rock which picked up a whole lot of friends as it went. Missed us completly, although the dust cloud was fun, but did give me pause to think. As a UK climber I grew up on half ropes and find them second nature, still will use my single for some cragging, I do think the 'complecity' of using them is greatly overstated. I think it was Rgold who once pointed out that it can't be that difficult if the British can manage . |
|
My wife and I learned to climb trad in the UK so we started out on double ropes and became quite proficient with them. Glad I know the technique for whenever it might be necessary, but having climbed a fair bit in the US now, I honestly vastly prefer single ropes for the vast majority of situations I encounter these days. They are just less faff. I actually think some UK climbers are so habituated to double ropes that they use them even when a single rope would be clearly superior, such as a splitter single-pitch crack. (Observed this at Millstone Edge for example.) |
Austin Donisanwrote: Holy shite! Would love to know what the hell happened there, almost looked like the crampons were in play but I'll take the title at it's word, just couldn't see where the sharp edge was or where the rope exactly broke. Hope the guy was OK. |
Heyzeuswrote: Honestly to me it looks like his tool lands on the rope for a brief instant and the tension cuts the rope. |
|
Going frame by frame it looks like it gets stuck behind a flake or pinched in a crack, causing the rope to run over the outer edge of the feature. Here's a (bad) gif going frame by frame: imgur.com/a/aoo6Qf4 |
|
I personally enjoy climbing with double ropes, especially on wandering climbs. But it's not always better to do less rappels. You really have to pay attention. Last year in November, I had to accompany a friend out to Marshfield ledges who had gotten a rope stuck the evening before. . Wish I knew where that picture was. I've never seen ropes that tangled before in my 40 years of climbing. |
 Found it |
rgoldwrote: Does that mean that you expect your partner to have a half rope, or do you always use your ropes? |
Matswrote: Good eye. Looks like it wasn't even directly running over the lip of that roof, it was something above. Scary stuff. I wonder what rope they were using. Edit: he says in the video description that it was a protrusion from the crack above that lip. |
D Kwrote: Do people really do this, in the UK or otherwise? Just own one half rope expecting your partner to bring the other? I've owned many doubles over the years and never even contemplated buying just one to pair up with someone else's. And I've never met anyone who did either. |
Mike Larsonwrote: My comment about each partner bringing their own half was a bit in jest. In the US, most climbers don't own doubles or even know how to use them. And on most routes there's little or no benefit to using them. I honestly can't remember the last time I saw someone using doubles (I do occasionally see people using twins in a party of three.) That's why I find it interesting when someone says they climb "exclusively" with doubles. Who are they climbing with, and what routes are they climbing? One would have to be very selective with their partners if using doubles is a requirement. You do not need two ropes to climb, but you do need two people. That's the biggest challenge to using doubles in the US: Finding a partner that also wants to use them. |
D Kwrote: I was referencing some of the earlier posts in the thread that mention this, from UK climbers. As for the exclusive comment, I'll refer you to my own post up thread. Knowing how to climb on doubles used to be normal here in the States as well. It's only fallen out of practice within the last 15 years. And clearly you aren't an ice climber if you can't even remember seeing someone using doubles. There it's still standard practice, especially on multipitch. |
I can assure you that formerly, it was common in at least some German speaking European climbing circles to only provide a single half rope for a project with a partner, who would provide the other rope. Why not? But maybe those people have become just as crazy gear addicted as Americans, in recent years. I can't say. While I have partnered here in the US with British and French climbers, using either a single rope or doubles, I don't recall any of those climbers expressing the idea of each person providing a half rope to the team as being customary. But it might have been. |
