More People Should Lead

Kyle McPheeterswrote:

Ftfy 

Working out pretty good for me tbh 

I used to love leading at my physical limit. So I fell plenty on both gear and bolt. After a serious climbing injury where I fractured my spine and got a serious concussion (yes I had a helmet on but it broke and fell off), and after getting to be close 50 years old, I just don’t enjoy leading that much. I still lead plenty. But I do it as a service to the team to put the rope up. I am going to swing leads on multi because otherwise it would be less efficient. But if we are cragging and my partner wants to lead everything, I am going to happily top rope. 

I've tried to give people space to respond before pushing back too strongly.

Some say I shouldn't care what others do. On an individual level, that's fair. But I'm not targeting any one person specifically. Take this example: imagine someone wants to run a marathon, but they're training in dollar store flip-flops. Encouraging them to use proper running shoes isn’t elitist—it's because I genuinely believe they’d benefit from better gear.

Now consider the traffic implications of top-roping. It's like driving on a highway. If one person drives with one foot on the gas and the other on the brake, it doesn’t affect me much. But if many people drive like that, it creates noticeable traffic. In that case, it’s worth pointing out the issue so that everyone can enjoy a smoother, more efficient experience.

These analogies aren't great. If done with purpose toproping will make you a better climber. It can be a far more efficient way to work moves and gear on a hard, runout trad climb, for example. Or a good way to get mileage if you're in a bad headspace. Hell, many professional climbers will top rope routes. Running in flip flops serves no purpose and will not make you a better runner. 

I don't really get the brake and gas pedal analogy either. At least for me and my partners, Let's say we're a group of three and one person leads and two follow. If one person leads then cleans gear and the next two follow the route - we will be off that route faster than if all three of us were to lead it individually and clean the gear after each lead. So TRing is faster and more efficient. 

Seems like your issue is with the "sacrificial" routes each area has where an inordinate number of climbers jump on the TR train and spend hours on a route that's often above their paygrade. Easy solution - get psyched on the "second-tier" classics. They're almost always as good as an areas 4 star routes and are far less likely to be annoyingly crowded. 

Todd Rwrote:

Easy solution - get psyched on the "second-tier" classics. They're almost always as good as an areas 4 star routes and are far less likely to be annoyingly crowded. 

I also find that those super crowded tr gangbanged “4 star” classics get polished to shit and become 3 stars or even 2 when you climb them and consider them with an objective mind. I say let the crowds continue TRing them to death. It’s like fly trap. They think it’s good, let them keep thinking its good, and leave the rest of the routes for us. Im thinking of Penny lane in Squamish, as an example. Its not even that good of a climb. Meanwhile the rest of the crag has some sick lines fewer ppl get on.

Tarvis Kaludewrote:

People should lead because pulling on the frictiony gym top rope aggravates my climber's elbow 

Best reply. +1

True that, the friction on those gym TRs is substantial. Lowering somebody of slight weight is its own challenge as well. Does anybody have any knowledge of a low friction belay device that would pass muster at a gym? Some widemouth, polished bad boy of an ATC?

Soft Catches and The Hard Truthwrote:

I've tried to give people space to respond before pushing back too strongly.

You’re really bad at this.

Maybe you should get out climbing a bit?  

Yeah, leading can be more time consuming than top roping, so not sure if I agree with smooth operation objection.

If you mean 10 people top roping one route and hogging it, yeah, I just tell myself I should have gotten up earlier…

Soft Catches and The Hard Truthwrote:

...

Now consider the traffic implications of top-roping. It's like driving on a highway. If one person drives with one foot on the gas and the other on the brake, it doesn’t affect me much. But if many people drive like that, it creates noticeable traffic. In that case, it’s worth pointing out the issue so that everyone can enjoy a smoother, more efficient experience.

If you're unable to get on the route you so desperately want to climb that day, you might want to consider waking up earlier.

It's so much easier to change your own behavior than to try to police everyone else's climbing style... As the old saying goes: "Wish in one hand, and shit in the other. See which one fills up, first."

I read this thread, just to find out we’re still not sure what words like “should” mean in this context. Think how much more efficient and fun it would have been if I had spent that time top roping. 

Fewer people should read MP.

Are people not leading anymore? I haven’t noticed. I’ve never met anyone who considers themselves a serious climber who’s not leading, unless they’re recovering from an injury.
Oh you mean we have to lead every single pitch we ever climb? Got it. Well that’s gonna make multipitches much more annoying. 

Evan Atwaterwrote:

Are people not leading anymore? I haven’t noticed. I’ve never met anyone who considers themselves a serious climber who’s not leading, unless they’re recovering from an injury.
Oh you mean we have to lead every single pitch we ever climb? Got it. Well that’s gonna make multipitches much more annoying. 

Naw... Take a look at his last comment -- that's where he reveals how the world has wronged him: Somebody was top-roping his Special Favorite Route, but his crippling social anxiety made him freeze up, unable to ask them politely to work in a lead. So instead he came home, and made up this ridiculous thread.

It's a tale as old as time!

Soft Catches and The Hard Truthwrote:

Some say I shouldn't care what others do. On an individual level, that's fair. But I'm not targeting any one person specifically. Take this example: imagine someone wants to run a marathon, but they're training in dollar store flip-flops. Encouraging them to use proper running shoes isn’t elitist—it's because I genuinely believe they’d benefit from better gear.

Now consider the traffic implications of top-roping. It's like driving on a highway. If one person drives with one foot on the gas and the other on the brake, it doesn’t affect me much. But if many people drive like that, it creates noticeable traffic. In that case, it’s worth pointing out the issue so that everyone can enjoy a smoother, more efficient experience.

I agree with Todd. These analogies are not great.

Flip flops versus running shoes = racking on your harness versus racking on a sling?

accelerator versus brakes = simul-top roping versus leading on gear?

Going back to the original post:

The primary benefit of top roping is to remove the fear element—but I think this has gone too far.

For some partners, the primary reason to top rope  is to remove risk.

 I often see climbers who are strong enough to send a route spend far too long working it on top rope. If they simply led more often, they’d waste far less time, as their fear management would naturally improve.

Too long? As was suggested earlier, do you mean it took too long for you to get on the route? 

Being strong enough does not mean competent on lead. And there is much more to it than being strong and also good at fear management. I have partners who have both of those but are very poor at gear placements and probably will always be so - may as well be free soloing.

Instead of analogies, maybe just give a climbing example or two of how more people leading would have made your day? 

Less analogies. More hard truths.

Ryan Lynchwrote:

Naw... Take a look at his last comment -- that's where he reveals how the world has wronged him: Somebody was top-roping his Special Favorite Route, but his crippling social anxiety made him freeze up, unable to ask them politely to work in a lead. So instead he came home, and made up this ridiculous thread.

It's a tale as old as time!

A Hard Truth for the Hard Truth! Very Meta. I’m for it. 

Todd Rwrote:

A Hard Truth for the Hard Truth! Very Meta. I’m for it. 

Pretty much all of his threads turn out this way, if you watch long enough, until he forgets and reveals himself.

I think he's either doing a lot of uppers -- or he's got an AI bot running this place in circles. Sober humans just don't have this kind of patience.

Ryan Lynchwrote:

Homie, you replied to this thread three times before I even looked at it again.  

I am not mad at anyone particular person or climb. I was just throwing out what I thought might be a slightly unpopular idea and seeing how it meshed with the forum. Apparently people love top roping. You win some, you lose some. Apparently the correct number of people lead climb. I can accept this reality, but if people want to continue to discuss go ahead!

Ryan Lynchwrote:

Pretty much all of his threads turn out this way, if you watch long enough, until he forgets and reveals himself.

I think he's either doing a lot of uppers -- or he's got an AI bot running this place in circles. Sober humans just don't have this kind of patience.

Hey, don’t make it lock another thread!

Soft Catches and The Hard Truthwrote:

Homie, you replied to this thread three times before I even looked at it again.  

I am not mad at anyone particular person or climb. I was just throwing out what I thought might be a slightly unpopular idea and seeing how it meshed with the forum. Apparently people love top roping. You win some, you lose some. Apparently the correct number of people lead climb. I can accept this reality, but if people want to continue to discuss go ahead!

Naw. People just don’t like you and your poor attempts at trolling.

Keep trying. 

Soft Catches and The Hard Truthwrote:

Homie, you replied to this thread three times before I even looked at it again.  

I am not mad at anyone particular person or climb. I was just throwing out what I thought might be a slightly unpopular idea and seeing how it meshed with the forum. Apparently people love top roping. You win some, you lose some. Apparently the correct number of people lead climb. I can accept this reality, but if people want to continue to discuss go ahead!

Letting this guy on the Internet is like trying to toilet train a chimpanzee. It ain't gonna work, and it's just gonna leave a big mess that nobody wants to clean up.

But at least we know you're not Adam Burch in disguise. You're not nearly clever enough to be him.