Pay to play climbing events on shared, public land?

Ryan Lynchwrote:

Us climbers ........ we're massively ,,,, hypocritical and self-important -- 

speak for yourself 

Daniel Shivelywrote:

Believe it or not, a moment in time existed when climbers went to mountainous areas or places with large rocks driven by a quest for adventure without the need to be prompted or supported by external prompts. I guess the motivation relies on intrinsic motivation as opposed to external validation. 

They still do.  It’s not ‘organic’ .

Daniel Shivelywrote:
Climbers being curious about new areas and visiting instead of being more influenced by marketing and organized events.

You still haven’t answered my question.

When you say new ares, do you mean new to the climber or undeveloped climbing areas?  

Jay Crewwrote:

speak for yourself 

Climbers Exceptionalism: The belief that being a climber somehow makes you better than other human beings -- in spite of all evidence to the contrary.

And Jay -- I really appreciate you commenting to offer evidence to help prove my point. Anything else you want to add that also helps demonstrate how self-important climbers are -- please do!

Do you consider guiding groups part of the despised “pay to play”?

Redacted Redactbergwrote:

Do you consider guiding groups part of the despised “pay to play”?

If the guided group is a "large, organized, pay to attend events on public land" then yes, absolutely. But I don't despise them. I just think they should be permitted and controlled.

Yes

Ryan Lynchwrote:

Climbers Exceptionalism: The belief that being a climber somehow makes you better than other human beings -- in spite of all evidence to the contrary.

projection... sell your rack, dress in sackcloth, atone for your sins

Climbing festivals on public land are basically mining, logging, and oil drilling with better branding. Same exploitation and degradation of shared land, displacement of locals, and corporate greed, just more puffy jackets and Instagram reels.

Only difference? Miners and roughnecks are less pretentious.

But hey, as long as there’s a land acknowledgment before the raffle, all sins are absolved.

Jay Crewwrote:

projection... sell your rack dress in sackcloth, atone for your sins

Oh, I absolutely DO practice what I preach. Way better than any of you Cosplayers pretending at being Real rock climbers.

For example:

• I'm in favor of for-profit climbing events in public lands, but ONLY if they feature Fugazi, the iconic 90s post-Punk hardcore band, as a special musical guest.
• I still buy my nuts at the hardware store. Meanwhile, Gear Cucks like you hide out in your own bedroom closet to listen to Daddy Black Diamond grunting as he rails your bank account.
• My climbing shoes are leather -- but they ARE 100% VEGAN. I make my own, from genuine human skin, after obtaining written consent from the original owner.
• For every single redpoint I tick on MP, I also post a  land acknowledgement in the comments -- but not just for the human Natives! I also acknowledge the OG inhabitants: The noble Permian Reptiles and Triassic Dinosaurs who once roamed these lands!

Top that, you lizard-eyed Macha-swilling Gen-Z muppets... Y'all probably don't even know what dinosaurs lived at your favorite crags during the Cretaceous Period.

Dirtbag Betawrote:

Climbing festivals on public land are basically mining, logging, and oil drilling with better branding. Same exploitation and degradation of shared land, displacement of locals, and corporate greed, just more puffy jackets and Instagram reels.

Only difference? Miners and roughnecks are less pretentious.

But hey, as long as there’s a land acknowledgment before the raffle, all sins are absolved.

No bro, dumping cyanide into rivers and leaving open pits filled with toxic waste is far beyond anything climbers will ever do.

Look up the Berkeley Pit mine outside of Butte Montana etc. 

Nothing. we. do. comes. close.

Daniel Shivelywrote:

Believe it or not, a moment in time existed when climbers went to mountainous areas or places with large rocks driven by a quest for adventure without the need to be prompted or supported by external prompts. I guess the motivation relies on intrinsic motivation as opposed to external validation. 

And basketball used to be played by shooting a soccer ball into a peach basket  

Yes, climbing gyms changed rock climbing forever. Get over it? 

Chad Millerwrote:

They still do.  It’s not ‘organic’ .

You still haven’t answered my question.

When you say new ares, do you mean new to the climber or undeveloped climbing areas?  

When a climber visits an area they are interested in, at a random time that works for them, this would be organic. When a event is planned then advertised then climbers visit at a specific time and pay to climb in a group, this would be a manufactured event. If you have a better way to describe this,I‘m interested in your ideas. 

New to the climber.

Chris Outingswrote:

And basketball used to be played by shooting a soccer ball into a peach basket  

Yes, climbing gyms changed rock climbing forever. Get over it? 

Not sure how gyms are responsible for pay to attend events, unless you are implying that festivals are simply gym culture in an outdoor setting.

Change is non stop. Are you triggered by an internet convo about the impact of change? Conversations create ideas and drive solutions.

I'll bite.

I've worked a few climbing festivals (Salt Lake Climber's Alliance, Moab Craggin' Classic). In my experience, those festivals actually don't cause much impact on climbing areas. The event is held at an event space nearby (summer camp, sports complex, etc.) and people either go climbing on their own or they attend the clinics. The clinics follow participant quantity restrictions stipulated by the permit (often no more than 15 people total) and coordinate with one another to spread out. The independent climbers naturally choose crags and routes, spreading their impact that way.

I hate to say it, but we live in a capitalist culture. Money talks. These commercial activities are one of the few ways climbers show their financial support for they land they love. I am required to pay 3% of my revenue back to the land manager when utilizing my permit. A climber can travel to a destination and never put a dime into the resource they're recreating on. Instead they pack their van up with their food from their local grocery store, flash their annual America the Beautiful pass they purchased online, go climb, camp for free on BLM land, then drive home. Y'all remember when public lands were going to be put up for sale a couple months ago? Yeah, it wasn't passionate letters from climbers that took that off the table. It was hunters, OHV users, and other groups that pay to play. We're incredibly fortunate as a recreational group in the sense that our hobby is low-cost; the only recurring cost most climbers have is an annual state or national park pass, if that.

Are large guided groups and festivals sometimes annoying? Yes. But they're also subsidizing public land improvements for the rest of us.

Fact: Climber spends locally are not very large. We need to do better, imo.

When I visit a place to fly fish I always stop in a local shop and buy something be it gear of food items.

I get it "I'm poor". But bitd we hitched from Yosemite to Bishop to pick up cheaper bulk groceries and hit the thrift shop for climbing rags.

So poor is not an excuse. You are rich if you get to go climbing.

Adam, while I essentially agree with your post, you seem to suggest in one paragraph that other user groups have far more economic influence than the paltry economic contributions and impact of climbers, then finish saying that climber festivals and large guided groups likely have a large impact in subsidizing public land improvements. 

I find myself more aligned with the first part of this than the second- the most significant benefit LCO's have in a local climbing area is their ongoing demonstrated stewardship and care, and the goodwill that it exhibits to land managers. These land managers are people, and they remember groups that show up regularly and positively contribute- this increases the likelihood that climbers voices will have a seat at the table when policy changes are being developed. (The notion expressed far upthread that such LCO events are a negative impact on these areas is short-sighted and trolling-ly cynical.)

Adam Flemingwrote:

I'll bite.

I've worked a few climbing festivals (Salt Lake Climber's Alliance, Moab Craggin' Classic). In my experience, those festivals actually don't cause much impact on climbing areas. The event is held at an event space nearby (summer camp, sports complex, etc.) and people either go climbing on their own or they attend the clinics. The clinics follow participant quantity restrictions stipulated by the permit (often no more than 15 people total) and coordinate with one another to spread out. The independent climbers naturally choose crags and routes, spreading their impact that way.

I hate to say it, but we live in a capitalist culture. Money talks. These commercial activities are one of the few ways climbers show their financial support for they land they love. I am required to pay 3% of my revenue back to the land manager when utilizing my permit. A climber can travel to a destination and never put a dime into the resource they're recreating on. Instead they pack their van up with their food from their local grocery store, flash their annual America the Beautiful pass they purchased online, go climb, camp for free on BLM land, then drive home. Y'all remember when public lands were going to be put up for sale a couple months ago? Yeah, it wasn't passionate letters from climbers that took that off the table. It was hunters, OHV users, and other groups that pay to play. We're incredibly fortunate as a recreational group in the sense that our hobby is low-cost; the only recurring cost most climbers have is an annual state or national park pass, if that.

Are large guided groups and festivals sometimes annoying? Yes. But they're also subsidizing public land improvements for the rest of us.

Some valid points here. If your events are required to pay 3% of revenue, it seems as if guidebook providers, film producers, and social media influencers should pay too. 

Morning all, first thing that comes to mind when it comes to large climbing events that is helpful and does a great job on clearing up and teach and education on being good stewards of the forest and public lands is Face Lift in Yosemite Valley! Great event and in my opinion super positive event!!! Thanks Ken

Ryan Lynchwrote:

Oh, I absolutely DO practice what I preach. Way better than any of you Cosplayers pretending at being Real rock climbers.

For example:

• I'm in favor of for-profit climbing events in public lands, but ONLY if they feature Fugazi, the iconic 90s post-Punk hardcore band, as a special musical guest.
• I still buy my nuts at the hardware store. Meanwhile, Gear Cucks like you hide out in your own bedroom closet to listen to Daddy Black Diamond grunting as he rails your bank account.
• My climbing shoes are leather -- but they ARE 100% VEGAN. I make my own, from genuine human skin, after obtaining written consent from the original owner.
• For every single redpoint I tick on MP, I also post a  land acknowledgement in the comments -- but not just for the human Natives! I also acknowledge the OG inhabitants: The noble Permian Reptiles and Triassic Dinosaurs who once roamed these lands!

Top that, you lizard-eyed Macha-swilling Gen-Z muppets... Y'all probably don't even know what dinosaurs lived at your favorite crags during the Cretaceous Period.

good one, you got me.. 5/10 on the troll scale

Some valid points here. If your events are required to pay 3% of revenue, it seems as if guidebook providers, film producers, and social media influencers should pay too.

YES! And a certain website, as well...