Pay to play climbing events on shared, public land?

Are large, organized, pay to attend events on public land an appropriate use of our shared natural resources? Over the years, I‘ve witnessed the magnified, inorganic overcrowding and environmental impact of these events to some local areas.

Would climbing and our vertical environment have a more positive future if growth was more organic and less driven by agenda and profit?

What do you mean by more ‘organic’?  

Had a long answer but changed it to:

1/10 troll bait. We can do better. Let's talk about gri gris, that always gets the people going, at least 2/10 quality.  

Chad Millerwrote:

What do you mean by more ‘organic’?  

Climbers being curious about new areas and visiting instead of being more influenced by marketing and organized events. 

Alex Stypwrote:

Had a long answer but changed it to:

1/10 troll bait. We can do better. Let's talk about gri gris, that always gets the people going, at least 2/10 quality.  

 

Not trolling at all. I‘m just a climber that has witnessed much change over my years of lurking around cliffs. As far as gri gris go, I liked the first and second gen but for me the drop proof gen blows. I also prefer to use a single mini-trax with no back-up for my brownpointing needs. Lol

Daniel Shivelywrote:

Climbers being curious about new areas and visiting instead of being more influenced by marketing and organized events. 

That’s not organic.

Also, are the new areas new to the climber, or undeveloped climbing?

Are large, organized, pay to attend events on public land an appropriate use of our shared natural resources?

Only if they have an issued permit, imo.

Alex Stypwrote:

Had a long answer but changed it to:

1/10 troll bait. We can do better. Let's talk about gri gris, that always gets the people going, at least 2/10 quality.  

 

I don’t use Gri Gri’s due to Petzl’s profit motive.

Michael Mazurowskiwrote:

I don’t use Gri Gri’s due to Petzl’s profit motive.

100%! I think gri-gris and for-profit belay devices are bringing too many people into the sport, and hence ultimately destroying the crags we love. 

Dziękuję za tę wspaniałą opinię!

This feels like a VERY specific beef, with a VERY specific op.

Daniel, how about you start off by telling us:

• Who hurt you?

Daniel Shivelywrote:

Are large, organized, pay to attend events on public land an appropriate use of our shared natural resources? Over the years, I‘ve witnessed the magnified, inorganic overcrowding and environmental impact of these events to some local areas.

Would climbing and our vertical environment have a more positive future if growth was more organic and less driven by agenda and profit?

Best NIMBY thread in awhile.

7/10 for "I got mine and it's close to the road. everyone else stay away."

Chad Millerwrote:

That’s not organic.

Also, are the new areas new to the climber, or undeveloped climbing?

Believe it or not, a moment in time existed when climbers went to mountainous areas or places with large rocks driven by a quest for adventure without the need to be prompted or supported by external prompts. I guess the motivation relies on intrinsic motivation as opposed to external validation. 

Michael Mazurowskiwrote:

I don’t use Gri Gri’s due to Petzl’s profit motive.

Profits generated by producing a valid product is great, profits from trashing public land with events that concentrate impact are what this discussion is about.

Ryan Lynchwrote:

This feels like a VERY specific beef, with a VERY specific op.

Daniel, how about you start off by telling us:

• Who hurt you?

Weird assumption there. My point is, most of the time climbers usually seek to spread out impact and speak of limiting large groups but then rally to large events and overlook the impact. This is about having a consistent environmental position.

This post prompted me to google Red Rock Rendezvous and it appears that it's no longer happening?

(apparently old news)

D Kwrote:

This post prompted me to google Red Rock Rendezvous and it appears that it's no longer happening?

(apparently old news)

RIP RRR. Those were super fun. Had a great late night convo with Peter Croft, and ended up in a hot tub with Shingo Ohkawa in the honeymoon suite there at the very last one. I still have PTSD around BBQ burnt ends from working that festival all 5 days that time and them only offering one single food truck the entire time. Thanks for the reminder of good times. 

Alex Stypwrote:

RIP RRR. Those were super fun. Had a great late night convo with Peter Croft, and ended up in a hot tub with Shingo Ohkawa in the honeymoon suite there at the very last one. I still have PTSD around BBQ burnt ends from working that festival all 5 days that time and them only offering one single food truck the entire time. Thanks for the reminder of good times. 

Cool story.

I hope you also did some climbing.

Daniel Shivelywrote:

Believe it or not, a moment in time existed when climbers went to mountainous areas or places with large rocks driven by a quest for adventure without the need to be prompted or supported by external prompts. I guess the motivation relies on intrinsic motivation as opposed to external validation. 

...but then came Instagram

Matt Nwrote:

...but then came Instagram

And before that there were hungry bellies in dirtbag encampments everywhere. Now they can exploit our lands for their own profit with a few selfies.

I am conflicted. More people in our sport leads to more allies to stave off the REAL exploiters like miners and drillers.

But there is no question there is more TP in the bushes.

Daniel Shivelywrote:

Believe it or not, a moment in time existed when climbers went to mountainous areas or places with large rocks driven by a quest for adventure without the need to be prompted or supported by external prompts. I guess the motivation relies on intrinsic motivation as opposed to external validation. 

Well, back then ( I started climbing in 1963), we still often had some 'external prompts', at least if we traveled away from our home areas. Those 'prompts' may have been an article, a campfire story, a photograph....and some were even 'commercial', such as a guidebook, a guide service, or climbing course. We almost always had 'something' that made us want to 'venture forth' to a certain location in search of some climbing.

I agree that none of these were large scale, mass-marketed events, but still that is just a matter of degree and within the reality that circumstances then were very different than they are currently.

Also, at least as far as I am aware, the type of events that you are concerned about don't seem to be held in 'new' areas, and are often focused on raising funds for new acquisitions and/or maintainance of established areas, ' spreading the gospel' of good stewardship practices ( and these areas are already very busy) especially to newer, gym-trained climbers, and building community---which usually has very positive effects. So, while, I understand, and, to some extent, share your concerns, I think such gatherings, if well done and with proper permission, can be more beneficial than harmful.

Daniel Shivelywrote:

Weird assumption there. My point is, most of the time climbers usually seek to spread out impact and speak of limiting large groups but then rally to large events and overlook the impact. This is about having a consistent environmental position.

There isn't an Emoji laughing hard enough to reply to this.

To the extent climbers express an interest in reducing human impact, in climbing areas, it's always self-interested... As in "How can we keep these other assholes from ruining MY outdoors?!" If you don't believe me, go poll some non-climbers how they feel about bolting in Wilderness areas.

Us climbers may not leave the same degree of local impact as, say, OHV enthusiasts. But we're massively more hypocritical and self-important -- which to me makes us climbers the worse breed of trash.