Winds are full of shit.

You really don’t need everyone to pack out their poop.  If we just asked the people from Colorado to do it, that would be enough.  

Marc801 C wrote:

What part of " https://wyofile.com/wyomings-crowded-lonesome-lake-tops-epas-national-survey-for-fecal-contamination/ " did you not understand?

Dubble is OG in the Winds, y'all don't even know lol

Glad you are still kicking dude. Fond NOLS in the 90s memories

I get that I can carry poop out, and horses can have bags over their poo holes too, and also pack it out.

Better yet, the horses can carry my poop out 

Bill Lawry wrote:

I don’t think a pound brought in equals a pound that could be brought out, especially given that backpackers tend to bring in dehydrated food to save carry-in weight.

I’m sure it’s not 1:1. But it’s not anywhere near 100% additional weight. It’s just not a big deal to carry it out. If it is for you, maybe switch to Camp Nanos, ultralights, and skinny ropes…

Ryan K wrote:

I’m sure it’s not 1:1. But it’s not anywhere near 100% additional weight. It’s just not a big deal to carry it out. If it is for you, maybe switch to Camp Nanos, ultralights, and skinny ropes…

Good god, man - I can't eat my biners and ropes, Ryan! But, I get it. Skinny down elsewhere so poop doesn't push total weight as high on the carryout.

But "... not anywhere near 100% additional weight"? Really? Let's check that out.

A Biscuit and Gravy Mountain House dinner weights 4.4 ounces net weight.  Instructions are to add 1 1/2 cups of water which is 12 ounces.  That is a 373 % increase in additional weight.  I realize that some of that may get pee'd out.  But take a look at the spoon full of that dinner (Mountain House Freeze-Dried Biscuits & Gravy with Pork and Sausage). The consistency there is not so different from the average pile of poo. 

I'd wager the increase in weight is around 200% in added weight.  Empirical evidence would be interesting to see.  The freeze drying process is amazing.

As I posted up thread, a solution is needed.  And it's honorable to ask individuals to take action, just not enough in my opinion.  Too many people won't pick up that level of individual responsibility.  Just look at posts up-thread.

Bill Lawry wrote:

Thanks for doing poo math, Bill. Gave me a smile. If you want the math to work out in your favor so you carry less poo out than good in, you can carry carrots and onions, pasta, etc. Better food and lighter packs on the way out!

Agree on all points. Stop the poo in the cirque 

Need some poop porters over there. Give them fake llama packers something to do.

I'm serious btw, a public/private enterprise poop partnership would be a good solution here. Hikers and climbers have to have a bear canister and a poop canister, or pay some... hehe... deposit to the poop packer who will pack your poop out of the designated spot on the designated day. Would I pay someone 50 bucks to pack my poop out for me? Hellyeah. Maybe even a hundred, for a week's worth. How many cirque and south lake hikers and climbers a week back there, in season? Make it profitable for them.

Cherokee Nunes wrote:

Need some poop porters over there. Give them fake llama packers something to do.

I'm serious btw, a public/private enterprise poop partnership would be a good solution here. Hikers and climbers have to have a bear canister and a poop canister, or pay some... hehe... deposit to the poop packer who will pack your poop out of the designated spot on the designated day. Would I pay someone 50 bucks to pack my poop out for me? Hellyeah. Maybe even a hundred, for a week's worth. How many cirque and south lake hikers and climbers a week back there, in season? Make it profitable for them.

I love this. I’d like to officially offer my poop porting services. My resume includes strong quads, poor sense of smell, and no dignity. I offer volume discounts, competitive rates, and loyalty punch cards. 

According to AI, for pack it all out success, ya want a low fiber, low residue diet for treks into the wilderness:  refined white grains, pasta, and cereals, meats, fish, and poultry, eggs, limited amounts of certain dairy products like milk, cheese, and yogurt (without seeds, nuts, or fruit), some peeled and cooked or canned fruits and vegetables without skins or seeds, oils, butter, mayonnaise, and salad dressings.

And avoid these:   foods high in fiber, such as whole grains, nuts, seeds, raw fruits and vegetables, and dried fruits, generally lead to more frequent and larger bowel movements due to the fiber adding bulk to the stool. 

And those familiar will note that doing the above risks constipation, nutritional deficiencies, discomfort, etc.

Or, yeah, share the trail with those llamas packing out the your poop and that of your copious wilderness neighbors.

Or?

Bill Lawry wrote:

A Biscuit and Gravy Mountain House dinner weights 4.4 ounces net weight.  Instructions are to add 1 1/2 cups of water which is 12 ounces.  That is a 373 % increase in additional weight.  I realize that some of that may get pee'd out.  But take a look at the spoon full of that dinner (Mountain House Freeze-Dried Biscuits & Gravy with Pork and Sausage). The consistency there is not so different from the average pile of poo. 

I'd wager the increase in weight is around 200% in added weight.

If you're not joking, this is wildly incorrect.

Marc801 C wrote:

If you're not joking, this is wildly incorrect.

Data?  Which part? My starting point was a dehydrated meal as is typically packed in and the comparison is to the residue that is carried out.

Genuinely curious Marc

Edit: Looks like my admittedly uninformed wager of 200% is wrong. Some references indicate that the average daily weight of feces is 4.5 ounces which is about the net weight of the Mountain House dinner I mentioned before hydration - just one of a three meal day. So maybe about 1/3 (33%) of like freeze dried food.

Lots of variability there. Still, what I wagered about was, yes, wildly off by about a factor of 6.

Jack L wrote:

I hate to say it, but we probably have reached a point where regulating traffic around The Cirque, Big Sandy Lake, and possibly Titcomb Basin is necessary... Data has yet to be published for Big Sandy, but it seems reasonable to assume that E.coli levels are very high, even though there is significantly more soil to treat the waste there than around Lonesome Lake. As far as I can tell, there have not been any water quality studies for Island Lake and the other lakes around Titcomb but the soil is shallow and the traffic is heavy.

Also, the Lonesome Lake samples were taken in early(ish) July, well before peak traffic. So, the levels are likely a good amount higher right after the brunt of the snowmelt and just after peak traffic.

E.Coli is a rather resistant bacteria, it stays dormant in the soils and then gets washed in during spring runoff/storms. Even if wag bags were 100% enforced, it would take multiple years for the current contamination of the soil/lake to drop below the EPA safety threshold. From ~500,000 cells/100ml, down to 1,280 cells/100ml. And that's not even considering the giardia, norovirus, crypto, etc. that most likely exists at high levels in these waters which were never tested for at these points. The cold water helps them survive much longer than normally observed in warmer areas.

For reference, if you only use a sterilization method, Aquamira/iodine/etc. to treat the lake water, this level of contamination will 100% make you sick. They were not designed to treat raw sewage... Swimming in that open septic tank might also mess u the fuq up.

Not picking on you but the levels dropped off by October if you reread the article it says that. The article is also bringing the attention to the possible issue of sickness associated with the high fecal/ ecoil, which I would be curious the number of water born illness reported/ associated with the water shed. Also stating that’s water purification is ineffective is a drastic overstatement. Actually most of your post is a drastic over statement, again not picking on you but keep its to facts not hyperbole. 

Wag bagging poop, storing it and having it carried out by pack train wouldn’t be crazy. Look at little Yosemite valley, all that dried out poo is packed out one mule at a time 

Cherokee Nunes wrote:

Need some poop porters over there. Give them fake llama packers something to do.

I'm serious btw, a public/private enterprise poop partnership would be a good solution here. Hikers and climbers have to have a bear canister and a poop canister, or pay some... hehe... deposit to the poop packer who will pack your poop out of the designated spot on the designated day. Would I pay someone 50 bucks to pack my poop out for me? Hellyeah. Maybe even a hundred, for a week's worth. How many cirque and south lake hikers and climbers a week back there, in season? Make it profitable for them.

This is good thinking outside the bag.

I wish packing out would be required on any popular camping zones, at any place above elevation of forests or by any large crews. It was disappointing to learn NOLS doesnt require them (as of 2019) with the large crews they take in glacial areas. On Big walls, Pete Zabrook use paper bags and dry them out in the sun making it much lighter and able to be burned. On el cap as a trio, the waste case weighed 15 lbs after a week, if you can't carry this out are you even fit enough to be an alpine climber? On one hand I would be so disappointed if the cirque required permits as they're frustrating to get, but I do agree something needs to be done.