Winds are full of shit.

Bill Lawrywrote:

I don’t think a pound brought in equals a pound that could be brought out, especially given that backpackers tend to bring in dehydrated food to save carry-in weight.

I’m sure it’s not 1:1. But it’s not anywhere near 100% additional weight. It’s just not a big deal to carry it out. If it is for you, maybe switch to Camp Nanos, ultralights, and skinny ropes…

Ryan Kwrote:

I’m sure it’s not 1:1. But it’s not anywhere near 100% additional weight. It’s just not a big deal to carry it out. If it is for you, maybe switch to Camp Nanos, ultralights, and skinny ropes…

Good god, man - I can't eat my biners and ropes, Ryan! But, I get it. Skinny down elsewhere so poop doesn't push total weight as high on the carryout.

But "... not anywhere near 100% additional weight"? Really? Let's check that out.

A Biscuit and Gravy Mountain House dinner weights 4.4 ounces net weight.  Instructions are to add 1 1/2 cups of water which is 12 ounces.  That is a 373 % increase in additional weight.  I realize that some of that may get pee'd out.  But take a look at the spoon full of that dinner (Mountain House Freeze-Dried Biscuits & Gravy with Pork and Sausage). The consistency there is not so different from the average pile of poo. 

I'd wager the increase in weight is around 200% in added weight.  Empirical evidence would be interesting to see.  The freeze drying process is amazing.

As I posted up thread, a solution is needed.  And it's honorable to ask individuals to take action, just not enough in my opinion.  Too many people won't pick up that level of individual responsibility.  Just look at posts up-thread.

Bill Lawrywrote:

Thanks for doing poo math, Bill. Gave me a smile. If you want the math to work out in your favor so you carry less poo out than good in, you can carry carrots and onions, pasta, etc. Better food and lighter packs on the way out!

Agree on all points. Stop the poo in the cirque 

Need some poop porters over there. Give them fake llama packers something to do.

I'm serious btw, a public/private enterprise poop partnership would be a good solution here. Hikers and climbers have to have a bear canister and a poop canister, or pay some... hehe... deposit to the poop packer who will pack your poop out of the designated spot on the designated day. Would I pay someone 50 bucks to pack my poop out for me? Hellyeah. Maybe even a hundred, for a week's worth. How many cirque and south lake hikers and climbers a week back there, in season? Make it profitable for them.

Cherokee Nuneswrote:

Need some poop porters over there. Give them fake llama packers something to do.

I'm serious btw, a public/private enterprise poop partnership would be a good solution here. Hikers and climbers have to have a bear canister and a poop canister, or pay some... hehe... deposit to the poop packer who will pack your poop out of the designated spot on the designated day. Would I pay someone 50 bucks to pack my poop out for me? Hellyeah. Maybe even a hundred, for a week's worth. How many cirque and south lake hikers and climbers a week back there, in season? Make it profitable for them.

I love this. I’d like to officially offer my poop porting services. My resume includes strong quads, poor sense of smell, and no dignity. I offer volume discounts, competitive rates, and loyalty punch cards. 

According to AI, for pack it all out success, ya want a low fiber, low residue diet for treks into the wilderness:  refined white grains, pasta, and cereals, meats, fish, and poultry, eggs, limited amounts of certain dairy products like milk, cheese, and yogurt (without seeds, nuts, or fruit), some peeled and cooked or canned fruits and vegetables without skins or seeds, oils, butter, mayonnaise, and salad dressings.

And avoid these:   foods high in fiber, such as whole grains, nuts, seeds, raw fruits and vegetables, and dried fruits, generally lead to more frequent and larger bowel movements due to the fiber adding bulk to the stool. 

And those familiar will note that doing the above risks constipation, nutritional deficiencies, discomfort, etc.

Or, yeah, share the trail with those llamas packing out the your poop and that of your copious wilderness neighbors.

Or?

Bill Lawrywrote:

A Biscuit and Gravy Mountain House dinner weights 4.4 ounces net weight.  Instructions are to add 1 1/2 cups of water which is 12 ounces.  That is a 373 % increase in additional weight.  I realize that some of that may get pee'd out.  But take a look at the spoon full of that dinner (Mountain House Freeze-Dried Biscuits & Gravy with Pork and Sausage). The consistency there is not so different from the average pile of poo. 

I'd wager the increase in weight is around 200% in added weight.

If you're not joking, this is wildly incorrect.

Marc801 Cwrote:

If you're not joking, this is wildly incorrect.

Data?  Which part? My starting point was a dehydrated meal as is typically packed in and the comparison is to the residue that is carried out.

Genuinely curious Marc

Edit: Looks like my admittedly uninformed wager of 200% is wrong. Some references indicate that the average daily weight of feces is 4.5 ounces which is about the net weight of the Mountain House dinner I mentioned before hydration - just one of a three meal day. So maybe about 1/3 (33%) of like freeze dried food.

Lots of variability there. Still, what I wagered about was, yes, wildly off by about a factor of 6.

I wish packing out would be required on any popular camping zones, at any place above elevation of forests or by any large crews. It was disappointing to learn NOLS doesnt require them (as of 2019) with the large crews they take in glacial areas. On Big walls, Pete Zabrook use paper bags and dry them out in the sun making it much lighter and able to be burned. On el cap as a trio, the waste case weighed 15 lbs after a week, if you can't carry this out are you even fit enough to be an alpine climber? On one hand I would be so disappointed if the cirque required permits as they're frustrating to get, but I do agree something needs to be done.

I know of a few trailheads that provide wagbags for users and that seems a good place to start. Working back to a place of homeostasis for places like lonesome seems like focusing too much on the worst case scenario. No doubt something should be done there and it is definitely happening in many other places. In the same way bear spray is necessary for some areas wagbags should be considered necessary. It’s not hard to convince people that bear spray is an effective tool.. I think if the focus can begin there we’ll be able to start by not restricting or deterring people from trails and also provide a solution. Also, the poop police can carry their shiny bags on their packs and dance their way down the trail cheering for the environment. Win win? 

mountainhickwrote:

It is federal land. USFS. We know where that's going with the current federal admin.

Hopefully a private land owner who keeps this lake poop free. 💩 

I just did a 5 day trip in the Cirque.  We hiked in on Labor Day and crossed paths with 196 people who were on their way out.  With no WAG bags at the trailhead and no signage indicating that they are even recommended, I think it's safe to assume that few of those folks were packing out their shit. There's also nowhere to leave bags after hiking out, so people would need to take them to Pinedale or wherever, which makes it a bigger lift.

Our shit bag after 5 days was only like 5 pounds (estimated) and NBD to carry out. It's a no brainer for places that see even moderate use.  If USFS doesn't heavily promote WAG use and make it really easy for people, though, compliance will be low.

evan freemanwrote:

I just did a 5 day trip in the Cirque.  We hiked in on Labor Day and crossed paths with 196 people who were on their way out.  With no WAG bags at the trailhead and no signage indicating that they are even recommended, I think it's safe to assume that few of those folks were packing out their shit. There's also nowhere to leave bags after hiking out, so people would need to take them to Pinedale or wherever, which makes it a bigger lift.

Our shit bag after 5 days was only like 5 pounds (estimated) and NBD to carry out. It's a no brainer for places that see even moderate use.  If USFS doesn't heavily promote WAG use and make it really easy for people, though, compliance will be low.

I was one of those 196 people if you hiked in on Sept 1. I not only carried my own poop but some of my party who was staying a few more days. In my three trips there this summer I did note that most climbers I met were wag bagging so that was heartening, but you make some very valid points, most people in general probably aren’t doing it.

We need a nonprofit sister to LNT that deals solely with shit. Somebody please do this :D

Horse biscuits: tail-bag them critters and scatter that shit in the woods.  It may be 'safe', but l sure loathe for-private-profit-on-public-land domestic animal shit on the trail in the "wilderness".