Falling on a Multi-Pitch, Can You Get The Red Point?

• If you and a friend are climbing a multi-pitch and your friend says, "Hey, the crux is pitch 5. Can you lead that one?" and you send it on your first go, and they follow without falling, I still don't think your friend can take the red point, but that is besides the question I pose today. 
• If you both go up to the climb and randomly switch leads, and you end up with the crux pitch, and you both send with you on lead and your friend on follow, I think both parties can take the red point. Alternatively, you both need to climb the climb twice, swapping evens and odds, which is a hassle. 
• If you are swapping leads and fall, lower to the anchor, and climb it on lead without falling, you can both take the red point. This is the usual way of things. Yes, if it's a mega project, both parties must lead every pitch, but I am discussing regular climbing. 
• If you are swapping leads randomly, and you onsight the crux pitch, your friend falls, you lower them to the anchor on TR, and they climb it the second time without falling, can you both take the red point? 
  • What if it's a freak fall, and they are climbing well below their onsight grade, and it's not even the crux pitch, and you lower them and they send on TR the second time? 

And before folks say it doesn't matter and why are you on Mountain Project instead of climbing, I twisted my ankle on a ground fall. Also, I have discussed this with several folks, but have not reached a consensus. 

If it really matters to someone that much, each person can lead the crux pitches. 

What if it's not the crux pitch? Can I lower my friend, have them TR send it the second TR go, and have them still count it? 

As far as I'm aware, you can't redpoint if you're on TR. A redpoint needs to be a lead. You could "TR onsight" something or climb a pitch clean on TR, but I'd definitely give somebody a funny look if they told me, "I redpointed that pitch on TR".

If both partners lead the same pitch without falling, the first one to do it will have flashed or onsighted it, depending on what knowledge they had of the route prior to doing it. The second one to lead it (the follower) will have redpointed it because they did it on TR the first go before you both lower down and have the original follower then lead the pitch. 

For my own personal tick list, I'll note what pitches I led and which (if any) I followed. If the route matters to me at all, I'll note whether I flashed it, fell, whatever when I led the pitch. I wouldn't ever say I redpointed a whole route if I followed any pitches. I would just say I led 1, 2, 3, and followed 4 and 5, for example.

At the end of the day none of this matters at all anyway so long as you're enjoying yourself and progressing (if that's important to you).

It really comes down to vibe, but I personally will only consider an ascent of a multi pitch a red point if I either lead the half of the hardest pitches or lead a few pitches that are just slightly easier than the crux pitch but altogether felt less like a similar challenge to leading the crux pitch. I personally wouldn’t consider it a redpoint if I avoided leading the crux pitch for any reason (fear, fatigue etc).

Thanks to a weird trickle-down effect from pro climbers taking asterisks on cutting edge routes, free climbing now has a pretty deep spectrum of ‘success’ and there aren’t really clear agreed upon lines for most of the gray areas you mention.  Basically it comes down to clearly and honestly reporting what you did and then what you personally can live with.  

If you sent with asterisks, (most of those scenarios are asterisks) say so and say what they are if asked.  If you don’t feel like you sent or would find meaning from improving the style in which you did so, go do the route again. 

Max Tepfer wrote:

If you sent with asterisks, (most of those scenarios are asterisks) say so and say what they are if asked.  If you don’t feel like you sent or would find meaning from improving the style in which you did so, go do the route again. 

Or just don't say anything, it's pretty enjoyable

I was never one to agonize over style minutia, but my thinking would be that redpoint isn't really a concept on a multipitch where the partners share leads in any way.

I suppose one can say they redpointed a particular pitch. If you want to say you redpointed the whole climb, then you'd have to be the leader on every pitch.

Another way to say it: Redpoint applies to individual leaders, not parties.

There is the concept of team ascent - the team as a unit sends the entire route with one person freeing each pitch on lead. Generally this involves the follower following each pitch clean.

I agree with DK that redpointing a pitch is clear-cut, but saying you redpointed a multi-pitch is streching the definition of the term unless you redpointed every single pitch.

 But nobody's making you attach a label to it, it's best to just be honest about what happened and let the facts speak for themselves. If you are motivated to return and do it again in better style that's great. You don't have to "take" anything.

The rules of pure multi pitch ascents are simple:

1) belayer must wear a blindfold to preserve their onsight.

2) the rope must never be weighted, even at belays

3) both climbers must lead every pitch, including the “approach/easy” pitches. Logistically this means both climbers soloing, or a 3rd party member with an ATC to belay both leaders at once. Of course, this 3rd member would also have to lead everything, which can be solved by bringing a 4th party member …

.

I usually just say "we climbed this route" and leave it at that. I might say "we got the team send" if we swap leads and nobody falls at any point. If it gets more specific than that, I'll just be specific. "They led the crux pitch clean, I hung on the rope once following" or whatever.

It literally doesn't matter. The only time it matters is on how you report the first ascent or if it is a cutting edge repeat that is news worthy. If it's not in those categories just go climbing. 

D K wrote:

If you want to say you redpointed the whole climb, then you'd have to be the leader on every pitch.

So what you’re saying is that the desire to follow every pitch on big alpine climbs should make me a really desirable partner? This is going to do wonders for my ability to get free de-facto guides!

Sage Bedell wrote:

• If you and a friend are climbing a multi-pitch and your friend says, "Hey, the crux is pitch 5. Can you lead that one?" and you send it on your first go, and they follow without falling, I still don't think your friend can take the red point, but that is besides the question I pose today. 
• If you both go up to the climb and randomly switch leads, and you end up with the crux pitch, and you both send with you on lead and your friend on follow, I think both parties can take the red point. Alternatively, you both need to climb the climb twice, swapping evens and odds, which is a hassle. 
• If you are swapping leads and fall, lower to the anchor, and climb it on lead without falling, you can both take the red point. This is the usual way of things. Yes, if it's a mega project, both parties must lead every pitch, but I am discussing regular climbing. 
• If you are swapping leads randomly, and you onsight the crux pitch, your friend falls, you lower them to the anchor on TR, and they climb it the second time without falling, can you both take the red point? 
  • What if it's a freak fall, and they are climbing well below their onsight grade, and it's not even the crux pitch, and you lower them and they send on TR the second time? 

And before folks say it doesn't matter and why are you on Mountain Project instead of climbing, I twisted my ankle on a ground fall. Also, I have discussed this with several folks, but have not reached a consensus. 

Oh the gamification of climbing...  

All that matters to me is that everyone is honest about what actually happened during the day out. Since red pointing implies leading, I prefer to say I freed the route if I sent. On mountain project I'll tick redpoint if lead any of the hard pitches then specify what happened in the notes.

On mountain project I will not tick anything. ... I used to keep a written climbing journal but theses days don't bother. Did an fa of a cool 9+ last fall and forgot what I named it but on reflection over the winter it's got a new name that is much more fitting. 

Opinion from a random climber, who’s “redpointed” relatively difficult multipitches

1. Sharing leads at 50/50 or near that and not falling when following either counts as a redpoint.

2. Best to each climb some hard pitches because it’s fun!

3. Probably can’t onsight any route in general if you belay someone on it.

4. I could be convinced that in some scenarios only the person(s) who lead the crux(s) get the RP but for now i don’t think so.

That sounds completely reasonable. Pro climbers obviously are going to make more stringent requirements when they want to prove a point but for recreational climbing the team effort for the win.

Obviously people stay up all night worrying about this stuff. 

What if all pitches are similar in difficulty, the leader falls on a pitch, and the follower sends all of it clean?

It’s definitely something that doesn’t matter much in the long run. But…

I’ve redpointed every pitch of a certain route, but never all on the same day. Not a send, not not a send. Whatever.

A scenario I dreamed up that’s never happened to me is if you don’t weight the rope. Imagine that on pitch 10, you fall low and land on a ledge before the rope gets tight. You brush yourself off and finish without falling. Similar to down climbing to gather yourself and trying again, but with a fall.

To me, I’d count it. It’s the free-solo survival send. If it would have killed you sans rope, there is an asterisk somewhere.

If you fall off the first pitch solo and break your ankle, then come back 6 months later and successfully solo the whole thing, I also kinda want to count it. Asterisk for sure though.