Tuolumne Bolt Chopping

You see how quickly it happens? We go from jamming new routes next to classics to retrobolting the classics in one page.

Some of you kids cannot be trusted. Luckily for us all there are vigilantes out there, chop chop.

i've thought about it some more, and i think im changing my mind. i was browsing through the new TM guidebook and just thinking about all this and as the gummies were kicking in i thought you know what? theres so many routes, like infinitely many, that to take a stand on these two, which have support from climbers who are familiar with TM, routes that were set a couple years ago already, by climbers that put their name on them, that there is nothing wrong with this. if i had climbed them without knowing this, i wouldnt have given it a second thought. i still think the chopper should have handled it differently and similarly put their name and reasons on their work, its cowardly. i think the thing that swayed me is steve's comment and just thinking about having this conversation with peter croft. he would never in a million years say that these routes don't belong because they take away from the experience of the meadows. neither would tommy caldwell, neither would connor herson, etc. so im starting to think my own reasons aren't good reasons, and im changing my mind. i appreciate everyone's input.

M Mwrote:

It seems that statement could also work for TM as a whole but what do I know?

I think Snake Dike is a little unique in the sense that it is a remote route that is committing to start to a uniquely dangerous summit in the case of lightning.

While that certainly is an issue in TM, ie Cathedral Peak, I wouldn't want to lure newbies up to such a committing route as Snake Dike with more bolts. Plus, I respect the history and challenge.

The routes on SPD are a simple rap to bail or self-rescue in the case of a minor accident whereas more bolts on SD might make more commit to the top which can be very dangerous and is a far more remote locale than most of TM.

Maybe Cathedral Peak would be safer if there were bolted anchors for rapping in case of storm? People would be able to quickly bail when weather threatened etc.

But again, the net effect is unknowable. We can only speculate as fortunately these accidents are rare. We certainly don't need more traffic on Cathedral Peak.

But this idea of more bolts = more access = more traffic = more accidents has a probable basis in reality (statistically speaking). That's as simple as saying no bolts = rated X = no accidents because no one ever climbs those routes = no accidents. I'm also living proof that no amount of bolts ensures short leader falls if there is a communication failure (I took 100+ foot fall on Shipoopi due to communication error). I certainly was on Shipoopi because of the closely bolted nature rather than the BY next door. But of course, vastly more people have climbed Shipoopi than the BY.

But really, the point of this thread from my perspective is not to hash over retro-bolting but to advocate for FA parties to be able to create routes how they want without fear of elitist reactionaries chopping them. The thread on Climbing made the point that these days routes should be protected for people climbing that grade near their limit. Not ie 5.7s protected like a 5.11 climber needs them to be like they all were bitd.

No route or bolt is safe from the American chopper.

add a bolt on double cross?  Chop chop

Scared on serenity, need a bolt next to perfect placements?  Chop liver

Sasha needs to add a bolt to book of hate?  Pork chops 

ooo you like those comfy stances in TM bolting the walking off?  Chopppppppppiiieeee

its summer.  Go climbing

ilya fwrote:

i've thought about it some more, and i think im changing my mind. i was browsing through the new TM guidebook and just thinking about all this and as the gummies were kicking in i thought you know what? theres so many routes, like infinitely many, that to take a stand on these two, which have support from climbers who are familiar with TM, routes that were set a couple years ago already, by climbers that put their name on them, that there is nothing wrong with this. if i had climbed them without knowing this, i wouldnt have given it a second thought. i still think the chopper should have handled it differently and similarly put their name and reasons on their work, its cowardly. i think the thing that swayed me is steve's comment and just thinking about having this conversation with peter croft. he would never in a million years say that these routes don't belong because they take away from the experience of the meadows. neither would tommy caldwell, neither would connor herson, etc. so im starting to think my own reasons aren't good reasons, and im changing my mind. i appreciate everyone's input.

Yes, I think you are grasping a critical point. While we have to have an appreciation of history in Yosemite we cannot deny others their fun and safety as they define it on new routes. Peter Croft has free soloed the Rostrum like 75 times or something, but he won't put his life above others climbing 5.5 routes with bolts and sees it as reasonable for them to have the protection they desire within "normal" Yosemite spacing constraints. He enjoys good protection when at his limit. Steve Schneider has climbed 5.14 in Yosemite, many horror shows and also but up some of the most well protected routes in TM that are well below his ability. I'm pretty sure they both know human life is always more valuable than rules from the 1970's when no one could envision gym moms leading routes and having fun. Climbing today simply accommodates more variety of experience. It's not all one thing defined by a "mountain climbing do or die" minimalist ethos preparing us to free solo some futuristic nightmare in the great ranges.

There are countless runout Tuolumne horror shows out there from roadside crags to remote domes. The few very well protected climbs do not at all diminish TM as a whole and simply broaden the experience. 

Tuolumne should be a living place allowing for the new (within reason) while still preserving the historical old classics with proud boldness. They can live side by side to inspire future generations.

Brandon Rwrote:

HH, it's not really a strawman since I'm not trying to misrepresent anyone's position in order to make it easier to defeat. It's just simply a (wild) hypothetical in order to expand or challenge our understanding of our own positions. 

You are correct about straw man. Technically, it would be a red herring. 

As mentioned earlier, boots on the ground, or in that case on the face, make the decisions about what to bolt and what to chop. However, these discussions are valuable IMO because some people who haven't thought through all the pros and cons of different viewpoints may learn and develop their understanding. Some of course won't learn anything. But especially newer climbers may learn why we don't just add bolt willy nilly to increase accessibility and safety. And less often some older climbers may learn that different people enjoy different types of climbing and if someone puts up a route that you don't like, then don't do it, but it doesn't mean many other people shouldn't be able to enjoy it.

ilya fwrote:

i've thought about it some more, and i think im changing my mind.

Funny enough, same here. I was all hot and bothered, and ready to go drop glue-ins that would be very difficult to bash over/out, but I’m waffling on that and actually holding off, due to more conversations with longtime locals.

 i was browsing through the new TM guidebook and just thinking about all this and as the gummies were kicking in i thought you know what? theres so many routes, like infinitely many, that to take a stand on these two, which have support from climbers who are familiar with TM, routes that were set a couple years ago already, by climbers that put their name on them, that there is nothing wrong with this. if i had climbed them without knowing this, i wouldnt have given it a second thought. i still think the chopper should have handled it differently and similarly put their name and reasons on their work, its cowardly. 

Agree 100%, it is absolutely a cowardly act to do it to these two routes and none others, while slinking around the shadows because you don’t want to face public disapproval of poorly thought out actions.

i think the thing that swayed me is steve's comment and just thinking about having this conversation with peter croft. he would never in a million years say that these routes don't belong because they take away from the experience of the meadows. neither would tommy caldwell, neither would connor herson, etc. so im starting to think my own reasons aren't good reasons, and im changing my mind. i appreciate everyone's input.

Interestingly enough, multiple people have voiced their frustration with Sessions in regards to other routes he has developed in the past. Some will even swear he uses the same ethics Sloan does… I have yet to hear any concrete evidence to truly support such an assertion - as opposed to seeing (with my own eyes!) a fu**ing handle sticking out of a backpack one time in the Valley - that is evidence but saying “oh, there’s no way they could drill ”x” number of bolts in “y“ number of days without help” is not the same, sorry.

If what I’m hearing is why the chopper acted, then he’s an egotistical asshole, end of story. If he has a problem with other routes that DS put in, go chop those. He didn’t, he chose two of the most popular routes installed, so that he could get attention and make more of a statement, not so he could do “a community service” by rectifying a supposed poor route. Also, he’s either the laziest person ever, or a fuggin geriatric, since he’s now removed both the anchors and the upper bolts to Jabberwalky, but still hasn’t removed the top bolt(s) on Aoxomoxoa, and hasn’t patched a single hole. I mean, holy sh**, how long does it take to unscrew 12 nuts on rap, then finish up with the top anchor? Oh, maybe he has “ethics” and he’s removing them “ground up?” But really, he is lazy AF, I could have done all this in about 2hrs, maybe 3 tops. Geezus.

Kinda amazed that this thread took a turn away from the norm.
You still have your west coast chopper enthusiasts, but folks like Ilya are actually having good faith engagment around the topic and having a shifting in their position. It takes being honest with yourself to be able to do so, and a growth mindset. It is all too easy to just dig the heels in. Kudos.

FWIW I'll patch anything that needs it next time I'm in the meadows....and/or bring hangers and nuts to put things back to usabale state (and anythign else needed).
My eldest kiddo will be stoked she'll have more things to get after with her dad up there. Gate keepin' tool bags better look out for the next generation.

So this bolts chopper never had a courage to name himself and claim his bold action? ( I can not  read all 10 pages maybe I missed  his coming out?) Choppers are usually shittiest climbers  ( actually they are not climbers per se ) and never improve,  because there goals are not to climb, but to claim that they exist on this planet. 

Mr Rogerswrote:

Kinda amazed that this thread took a turn away from the norm.
You still have your west coast chopper enthusiasts, but folks like Ilya are actually having good faith engagment around the topic and having a shifting in their position. It takes being honest with yourself to be able to do so, and a growth mindset. It is all too easy to just dig the heels in. Kudos.

FWIW I'll patch anything that needs it next time I'm in the meadows....and/or bring hangers and nuts to put things back to usabale state (and anythign else needed).
My eldest kiddo will be stoked she'll have more things to get after with her dad up there. Gate keepin' tool bags better look out for the next generation.

I'm hoping to make the trek back up there the beginning of next season with my 10 year old. We were up on the dome, were bummed about the chopped bolts

It is good to see that there are still climbers who respect the clean climbing ethos.

“Marsha,” go back to your regular account, the burner account is a bit of a clanker

Marsha Langherwrote:

It is good to see that there are still climbers who respect the clean climbing ethos.

Stop trolling.

Marsha Langherwrote:

It is good to see that there are still climbers who respect the clean climbing ethos.

Yes it's good to see people are willing to go up there and clean up the lazy chop job the anonymous coward did.

Does it make me an antiquated weirdo l if I agree with the chopp AND also agree with anonymous hatred ?

There might be some ICE workers out there doing something good but I have a feeling the majority of them that wear masks are POS

 You all deserve to be hit with a mud falcon next time you’re cragging on the capitan.

A superhero never reveals their true identity.  

Superheroes aren't cowards.

Anyone who knows they were doing a community service wouldn't be an anonymous coward. You hide behind anonymity when you know you're an ego driven douche bag.