You are responsible for your partner's knot: controversial?

I've trained hundreds of new climbers (as a guide) and I tell them "you are responsible for your partner's knot as if it were your own."

What do you think?  Do you agree?  Is it universal in your experience or rare?  In other words, how many people do you climb with who don't bother to check you before blasting off? When something bad happens because of a bad tie-in, is the belayer at least partly to blame?

I recall a famous story about Lynn Hill where she didn't finish her figure-8 tie-in, climbed up a route, leaned back, and fell to the ground (landing in trees, which apparently saved her life).  Did her belayer check her knot before allowing her to leave the ground?

The trend of shifting one's personal responsibility towards others is truly disturbing.

I think you don’t have enough clients if you’re posting this.  

Seriously though, the partner check is just that. A check. It’s not an inspection. You’re not responsible for your partners knot.  

apogeewrote:

The trend of shifting one's personal responsibility towards others is truly disturbing.

Maybe you should just solo then.  Belaying is the very definition of taking personal responsibility for another person.

Tom Rangitschwrote:

Maybe you should just solo then.  Belaying is the very definition of taking personal responsibility for another person.

We’re discussing the partner check , specifically your partner’s tie in knot.

You know that. Just stop trying to troll. 

Well, if I was belaying someone and they decked due to an improperly tied knot, I would definitely feel like it was somewhat on me.  I don't know anyone who wouldn't.  I'm not trolling, just stating that part of belaying is making sure the system works, and the climber's knot is definitely part of that system.

As a guide it would benefit you and your clients for them to be overly cautious, so the statement makes sense.

In general I would say that you are responsible for your and your partner's knots, but likewise your partner is responsible for their and your knots as well.

So let's break this down a little more specifically. You are climbing with a longtime partner, you are both similarly well experienced. For whatever reason, you don't finish your knot properly, weight the system, and deck (with or without serious injury). Where does the responsibility percentage lie for the climber-belayer? 70% climber, 30% belayer? 50% - 50%? 30% - 70%? Or?

I'm pretty sure the Lynn Hill incident was from her cleaning the route. No way to get a double check from a partner when one is at the top of a route and belayer is below them.

What a great philosophical question! I'm told that mystics have spent a lot of time meditating on Cain's "Am I my brother's keeper?"

If I'm climbing with a newbie, I believe I'm 100% responsible for their knot...and at least 90% responsible for whatever s$#@-show they bring to the crag.

If my partner is experienced, I don't believe I'm responsible for their knot. However, I try to check it every time because: 1) If their knot fails, I will FEEL responsible, regardless of whether this is rational. 2) I'm not perfect and I want them to do the same for me.

Yes Zay, I'm a little bored today.

EDIT: Lynn's account of that fall appears in Climbing Free (the first half of which is great reading). I'll see if I still have my copy tonight).

My opinion is that you climb with people you’re comfortable with and the standards you both set for each other align. In my case, I make it known that when you climb with me, we all take 100% accountability for everyone’s safety. 

Sharp End Podcast #111

There is no limit on the strange ways people find to hurt themselves and their partners.  

Who owns the responsibility is irrelevant.  One has a better time not being in or near accidents.  Just do what is necessary to minimize risk. 

My partners and I always always always "show me the knot." 

Even if its silent and nosy passersby don't notice, we always check, sometimes only communicating with eyes. 

I think the always always always part has a tendency to get watered down in gym-like environments (meaning, very busy crag environments) with transactional climbing partners.

I’m gonna disagree with the OP. I expect my partner to be in the habit of constantly double and triple checking their systems. I usually won’t check my partners knot - but I’ll verbally say “good knot?” Just to make sure they double checked themselves.

I want to know when my partner is putting me on belay on top of a pitch that they’re double checking that system. Same with when they are cleaning a route. Same if we’re fixing and following. Or any of a myriad of other situations when there can be no partner check - it’s all on one person.

So yeah I think double and triple checks are one of the most important things in climbing. But I think we need to be in the habit of doing them ourselves - not relying on our partners to do them for us. 

Logan Petersonwrote:

What a great philosophical question! I'm told that mystics have spent a lot of time meditating on Cain's "Am I my brother's keeper?"

If I'm climbing with a newbie, I believe I'm 100% responsible for their knot...and at least 90% responsible for whatever s$#@-show they bring to the crag.

If my partner is experienced, I don't believe I'm responsible for their knot. However, I try to check it every time because: 1) If their knot fails, I will FEEL responsible, regardless of whether this is rational. 2) I'm not perfect and I want them to do the same for me.

Yes Zay, I'm a little bored today.

EDIT: Lynn's account of that fall appears in Climbing Free (the first half of which is great reading). I'll see if I still have my copy tonight).

Yes, yes. That is right. It's been 15 years since I've read that book. She was distracted by talking at the base while tying in? 

Regarding the knot, the climber always has primary initial responsibility, while the belayer acts as backup and then vice versa in checking that the belay device is set to go. Constant monitoring the status of safety systems should be a given but the climber should be always on the lookout regardless since it's their neck on the line.

I disagree. It's a nice thing to say but I don't agree. My knot is my responsibility and mine alone. The amount of slack in the system is largely my partner's responsibility but some of that is mine too, as I should be monitoring it even if only subconsciously as I climb. 

A tie in knot is one side of the system that keeps me (hopefully) from hitting the ground. It's fully my responsibility. The other side of the system where my partner and their belay device is, is their responsibility. I think it's good to encourage partner checks as one additional level of review before setting off, but ultimately my partner holds complete responsibility for tieing a safe and secure knot for themselves, just as I do for myself. 

I think a better way to approach it might be, "You are responsible for tieing in correctly and dressing your knot properly. You and your partner are responsible for being a second set of eyes on each other's knots before you set off."

No, my partner is not responsible for my knot. 

If my partner fails to tie their knot properly or go through both loops and I don't notice, I will feel like I have done something wrong.  I should have seen that, I should be checking my partner's knot. 

We do climb with that habit for safety, as a back up.  And if I notice a particular partner is non-chalant about checking my knot, it's a bad sign to me, i don't want to climb with that type of inattentive person.

But, if something happens, or if I miss a loop on my harness, I would not blame it on my partner.  It's ultimately my responsibility and the partner check is a back-up for what I should already be doing myself.  Always in life you are responsible for your own actions. 

That being said, even if the responsibility is ultimately your own, I think the statement "you are always responsible for your partner's knot" is a good statement to teach new climbers.  It will imbue that feeling of responsibility and how important it is to have each other's backs, even if an accident would not really be their fault.  That feeling and awareness is what is important here.  Especially when it comes to tying in, because it quickly becomes so routine people don't think about what they are doing anymore. 

I use a double bowline when dogging. Youngsters can’t/won’t learn it.

Something very similar happened to me once a long time ago. I was TR’ing something in JT, got distracted by the social scene at the base, topped out and realized I’d tied into only the leg loops. (Ironically, a guiding peer happened to be at the top, and called it out.) I considered this to be my responsibility, 100%- it has never occurred to me that my belayer shared any responsibility, whatsoever.