New and experienced climbers over 50 #37

dragonswrote:

I have to agree. BTW, I was trying to figure out the history of that name, Yum Yum Yab Yum. So I asked ChatGPT. (On a side note, I've been having a discussion with my technical colleagues about the usefulness and general trustworthiness of ChatGPT.)

Here's what ChatGPT said. I've trimmed a bit:

Huh not sure about those details.

There has been some discussion about ChatGPT "hallucinating". Here we have a route graded 5.3 (in the Purple Dick) which is declared by ChatGPT to be 5.10a. The Purple Dick says the FA was by Art Gran and Al DeMaria. No mention of John Bragg. "Birdie Party" is in the Trapps?

Grade inflation comes to ChatGPT   !
I've played around with it in my field and it's pretty bad. All the while being remarkably confident and relentlessly upbeat about it's wrong answers.

Dragons wrote:

...I was trying to figure out the history of that name, Yum Yum Yab Yum. So I asked ChatGPT. (On a side note, I've been having a discussion with my technical colleagues about the usefulness and general trustworthiness of ChatGPT.)

Here's what ChatGPT said. I've trimmed a bit:

Yum Yum Yab Yum is a real climbing route located in the Near Trapps section of the Gunks (Shawangunks) in New York. It's a two-pitch route that climbs a thin face and shallow corners, often rated around 5.10a.

"Yab-Yum" is a Tibetan term that translates to "father-mother" and is often associated with Tantric Buddhism. It symbolizes the union of wisdom and compassion, often depicted in sculpture or art as a male deity in sexual embrace with a female consort. It has been referenced in both spiritual and countercultural contexts.

Given that:

• Many climbers in the Gunks during the 1970s–80s were part of or influenced by Eastern philosophy, psychedelic culture, or the Beat generation.

• The route name includes a bit of playful redundancy (“Yum Yum Yab Yum”), which might suggest tongue-in-cheek humor or wordplay—common in route naming at the Gunks.

Route History:

The first ascent is attributed to John Bragg and Art Gran in the early 1970s (exact year varies by guidebook). Bragg was known for pushing standards at the Gunks and bringing technical, bold style to the crag. Gran was also an influential climber and writer in the Gunks scene.

Route Details:

• Grade: ~5.10a

• Protection: Gear-protected, with some thin sections.

• Style: Face and corner climbing; considered technical.

• Location: Not far from Yellow Ridge or Birdie Party in the Nears.

Huh not sure about those details.

There has been some discussion about ChatGPT "hallucinating". Here we have a route graded 5.3 (in the Purple Dick) which is declared by ChatGPT to be 5.10a. The Purple Dick says the FA was by Art Gran and Al DeMaria. No mention of John Bragg. "Birdie Party" is in the Trapps?

Hmm big ChatGPT fail. The grade is 5.3 (originally) or 5.4, not even remotely 5.10a. The first ascent was Gran and DeMaria in 1960, not in the early 1970's.  I checked a few guidebooks and found no disagreement about the FA date.  Bragg had nothing to do with the route, and Gran had retired from the scene before Bragg even showed up, so they never climbed anything together.  I don't know what "not far from" is supposed to mean, but I wouldn't say the route is close to Yellow Ridge, and of course, Birdie Party is quite far away on a different cliff.

The original name was Yum Yum Yab Yum II, but the Roman numeral seems to have been lost. Dunno what the numeral was supposed to signify.  Although the name Yab Yum has higher Buddhist significance, the filthy-minded degenerate Vulgarian first ascentionists were fully focused on the sexual position depicted. In his 1964 guide, Gran says, "A take-off on Himalayan names, it means 'delicious love.' "  I assume the prepended "Yum Yum" is an approving exclamation usually but not always reserved for food.

rgoldwrote:

Dragons wrote:

Hmm big ChatGPT fail. The grade is 5.3 (originally) or 5.4, not even remotely 5.10a. 

Damn!!!

And here I was well chuffed that I'd led a Gunks .10!!!

;)

There have recently been several fairly well-publicized incidents in which attorneys, sometimes even ones working for very prestigious law firms, have submitted briefs containing citations to non-existent prior court decisions. It was subsequently learned that these lawyers had done their research on ChatGPT ( or other AI 'sources') and committed the cardinal sin of not personally checking the supposed cases to verify the information.

Then there are the recent reports submitted by Kennedy's DHHS, which contain multiple references to either non-existent or very misinterpreted studies. Though, in those situations, it is still not clear if those seriously erroneous references are the result of reliance on AI or the intentional actions of lying, stupid humans.Of course, the Department spokespeople refer to them as "formatting errors"!!!!

Anyway, Yum Yum, Yab Yum is a classic Vulgarian name from a classic Vulgarian team. I'm guessing that the 'II' in the original name was a take-off on Himalayan peak names such as Gasherbrum IV, which was in the climbing news at the time of the FA.

Buck Rogerswrote:

Damn!!!

And here I was well chuffed that I'd led a Gunks .10!!!

;)

I kind of wonder if that could be partly my fault.  I know I've described the climb as "5.3 movement with 5.10 exposure" on the web, numerous times, on a variety of forums.  If ChatGPT scraped them up several times, it may have decided that 5.10 was the grade.

GO

I've used ChatGPT and other AI to look up math items.  Obviously, they were never built for that, and it shows.  I'd say I get wrong results about half the time, and the systems have no problem posting directly contradictory things with a straight face.  (There are various math-specific AI systems which, I suppose, do a better job.)

Still, the YYYY response from ChatGPT is stunning in its inaccuracy.  It almost looks like an RFK gold-standard science report.

rgoldwrote:

Hmm big ChatGPT fail. The grade is 5.3 (originally) or 5.4, not even remotely 5.10a. The first ascent was Gran and DeMaria in 1960, not in the early 1970's.  I checked a few guidebooks and found no disagreement about the FA date.  Bragg had nothing to do with the route, and Gran had retired from the scene before Bragg even showed up, so they never climbed anything together.  I don't know what "not far from" is supposed to mean, but I wouldn't say the route is close to Yellow Ridge, and of course, Birdie Party is quite far away on a different cliff.

The original name was Yum Yum Yab Yum II, but the Roman numeral seems to have been lost. Dunno what the numeral was supposed to signify.  Although the name Yab Yum has higher Buddhist significance, the filthy-minded degenerate Vulgarian first ascentionists were fully focused on the sexual position depicted. In his 1964 guide, Gran says, "A take-off on Himalayan names, it means 'delicious love.' "  I assume the prepended "Yum Yum" is an approving exclamation usually but not always reserved for food.

Rich,

Thank you for setting this straight, we can only hope that chat gpt is "picking up on your words" to set the record straight and give us a semblance of accuracy in the historic record, all while we are watched over by machines of loving grace.

I was listening to a podcast with Alex Honnold and Chris Sharma, and part of their conversation was about how they see themselves now as older climbers.  They agreed that they didn’t want to act like they were 20 again, but were wanting to redefine their climbing as they get older.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/5Xc8UPoxYbEM3JviEHvtLU?si=LAd9vslkTGye-f3sAZNEjg

—

I’ve been thinking about aging a lot since I started my own climbing journey at the age of 65.  I believe I started with the request to Bob “just help me be the best climber I can be”.  If I look at my abilities comparatively (to others or to my younger self) it would be depressing. But if I look at aging as an evolving process then climbing at this age is truly something to celebrate.  It may not involve the athletic feats of young climbers, but it may have more intelligence and heart. 

I am personally moving away from framing the aging experience as “decline“, becoming gradually “less than”, a withering away of strength and ability.  What I’m really seeing is the emergence of brand new qualities: intense curiosity, more focus on technique, the perception of joy and wonder that no younger person could embrace yet.

Rgold wrote something several years ago that has never left me (but I can’t find it). Something about a long approach to a climbing area – – younger climbers were rushing past him, he was taking the time to look around and take the beauty.  His journey was slower but more filled with wonder and joy. 

I am finding something new almost every day I head out to hike. I’m finding little twists and turns in tunnels and boulders that would make a beautiful haiku of a climb.  It feels like we are in formation every day until we die.

—

MM, regarding not climbing this summer.  I will be climbing every chance I get… It was 116° here yesterday and the day before. I wish we had a local climbing gym. But I learned a hard lesson on my last few outings: I wasn’t nearly strong enough to handle the route I was on. I kept thinking about that one line from John Bachar where he said that you want to be stronger than the route you are on.

So I decided to take this summer and do some intensive strength and endurance training.  I have a PT circuit to do on some days and heavy weights on others. I can’t seem to give up hiking, but I’ve picked up the pace.  

It really helps me to visit ridiculously difficult routes and get excited about them as a fuel for workouts.  

Sharma is so incredibly great.

Love that guy and I have a friend that knows him and has climbed with him and he says that he's just the nicest guy and the real deal. No ego.

We' got lucky with him and Tommy Caldwell around 30 years ago when they both hit the scene.

Lori, I like your nice thoughts about aging.  I certainly do agree that we have the potential to be more intentional about our actions as we get older, and without a doubt I think we're more appreciative of what we have than younger folks.  Regarding this: 

Lori Milaswrote:

MM, regarding not climbing this summer.  I will be climbing every chance I get… It was 116° here yesterday and the day before. I wish we had a local climbing gym. But I learned a hard lesson on my last few outings: I wasn’t nearly strong enough to handle the route I was on. I kept thinking about that one line from John Bachar where he said that you want to be stronger than the route you are on.

So I decided to take this summer and do some intensive strength and endurance training.  I have a PT circuit to do on some days and heavy weights on others. I can’t seem to give up hiking, but I’ve picked up the pace.  

It really helps me to visit ridiculously difficult routes and get excited about them as a fuel for workouts.  

You're both right.  I think you're absolutely on the right track to:

1. Find something that inspires you
2. Focus in on the biggest weakness preventing you from achieving your goal
3. Be diligent in your efforts to get stronger/better at that specific weakness (slow and steady)
4. Try again and reassess (find the new weakest link in your chain)

But MM is also right (Ward reminded me of this, and I take it to heart) that nothing teaches you more about how to climb a climb than spending oodles of time on it.  Learn what works for you.  Get more and more pieces that will flow together, saving your real focus and strength for the bits where you need it.  It's like how John Gill talks about bouldering being like a gymnastics routine that you perfect.  Can you imagine any gymnast performing a routine at a big event where they've only just strung all the moves together a few times?  I think climbing a route at your absolute limit is a little like performing a piano sonata.  It takes hours and hours of practice on the actual piece, not just doing scales and arpeggios and such (not that those don't also have their place).

Okay, I'll get down off my soap box now.

It's raining outside (again).  Been so rainy the leaves on all the trees are getting fungal diseases.  Progress with our cats is very slow with frequent backsliding.  I think I'm coming down off my high from the weekend's fun and trying not to dive into a corresponding trough.  If I was Carl I would just dive in headlong, and make the most of it with some dark poetry.  But I don't have the talent for it.

Edited to add:  Thanks, Lori, for the link to that podcast.  I never listen to podcasts, but I enjoyed that.

Cheers,

GO

 

I love where this conversation is going. We do not have to settle for crumbs. I wouldn’t trade this age for any other. Maybe some of you pure athletes miss the past. I could see that I guess. But I like Cherokee‘s take on this – – even a stroll down the road has some pure joy.

I never thought this dichotomy between working out and climbing a route would be so fraught with conflict. Bob has always said the best way to climb a route is to climb the route!  I’ve had a couple of really rewarding climbs that I managed to do by repetition.  This last stemming route, oh my, I felt like a hero!  But how much better it might’ve been if I had only started with a little more leg strength and endurance.  

I worked the hardest on this one.  We just kept going back. 

Here’s my theory: the difference between Type A fun and Type B fun is strength and endurance. These routes would be fun while we are climbing them if we have ample strength going in.  Otherwise, for me, the enjoyment is in the memory the next day. 

Funny about Sharma being “old.”  At 40, I had hit a plateau in my top grades.  I didn’t stop climbing, but I slacked off on my training and discipline.  In retrospect, I should have kept pushing.  Dave Graham just put up a new V16, his top boulder grade, at age 41.

Lori Milaswrote:

I love where this conversation is going. We do not have to settle for crumbs. I wouldn’t trade this age for any other. Maybe some of you pure athletes miss the past. I could see that I guess. But I like Cherokee‘s take on this – – even a stroll down the road has some pure joy.

I never thought this dichotomy between working out and climbing a route would be so fraught with conflict. Bob has always said the best way to climb a route is to climb the route!  I’ve had a couple of really rewarding climbs that I managed to do by repetition.  This last stemming route, oh my, I felt like a hero!  But how much better it might’ve been if I had only started with a little more leg strength and endurance.  

I worked the hardest on this one.  We just kept going back. 

Here’s my theory: the difference between Type A fun and Type B fun is strength and endurance. These routes would be fun while we are climbing them if we have ample strength going in.  Otherwise, for me, the enjoyment is in the memory the next day. 

Lori, I asked this before, but maybe you didn't see my question - did you send that new route - the one that starts in the chimney (what I think you call stemming) and finishes on the slab?  If so, did you mention sending it before?  I looked but couldn't find where that happened.

GO

GabeOwrote:

Lori, I asked this before, but maybe you didn't see my question - did you send that new route - the one that starts in the chimney (what I think you call stemming) and finishes on the slab?  If so, did you mention sending it before?  I looked but couldn't find where that happened.

GO

I did!  It was a magical experience.  I am not familiar with publishing new routes so I am leaving it to Bob to do that.  There are a few issues, one being that no new bolts are allowed in the Park right now, probably due to the lack of staffing to review and approve applications.  So, the decision was whether it should be a toprope only route with a trad (?) anchor, or a bolted route to be done when the Park is ready to issue a permit?  

It started as a stemming route, then changed to some chimney moves (the picture I posted), then some reachy stemming... and then total switch to slab on top for 20-30 feet.  It has some of everything!  

Just about the halfway point

And then on to the face... 

It was on this route that I learned how much more fitness I really need to pull my own weight up a rock.  The biggest obstacle for me was just that I got so winded by the halfway mark.  There are places for long rests so some of the learning process was just forcing a hard stop until I could breathe again.

I had just watched Randy Leavitt's video of Book of Hate and kept thinking about the exertion he expended climbing that route.    I would call mine "The Book of Mild Dislike".  (not) 

---

We are going to visit this little dog at the No Kill shelter this afternoon.  She is 15 years old.  Some vision problems.  I know she probably doesn't have long to live.  Tony says 'no'.. he doesn't want the heartache.  I am thinking, ok, bittersweet, and maybe a heartache, but also a lot of lovin' to give going in every direction.  We'll see.  

 

.  

 

  

  

Congrats!  That's very cool!

GO

Cool looking route Lori, definitely looks like some bolts are needed!  How hard is the process?  

I have always had a lack of rules at the places that I climb, which I love.   However, I totally get that at some point, like Wilderness Areas, rules are needed.  I was actually the one who advocated for a new route moratorium between the Rumney Climbers Association and the Forest Service for some of the cliffs at Rumney.  We did this on cliffs that were already pretty much fully developed in order to avoid the grid bolting that degrades existing climbs.  In retrospect, a permit system might have been a better solution in order to allow the occasional new route that makes sense to everyone.  

Ward Smithwrote:

Cool looking route Lori, definitely looks like some bolts are needed!  How hard is the process?  .  

This question was not directed to me, but I just listened to this podcast with Bob G. (The Climbing Majority Podcast). In one part (at about 1:18:00) he talks about the state of bolting in jtree and America, and he describes his process a little bit.  The current state of bolting seems in a sad place.

https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/www.buzzsprout.com/1902269/episodes/17097955-92-an-untold-life-w-bob-gaines.mp3

I read with interest the posts about routes I never heard of, having more or less petered out of steam by 1980. I am curious about the growth of new routes over the years, so I asked Copilot and ChatGPT how many existed in 1960 and now. 

ChatGPT:  250K-300K. (MntProject 200K). 1960: 3K-5K

Copilot:  182K. 1960: 1K

Rich mentioned his experiences with AI concerning math. I have had both bad info come forth and, surprisingly, on one occasion what seems to be useful creative thinking when I stated a research project I am playing with and asked for a suggestion about a big step. 

Here I watch rgold as he does a delicate traverse. About 1898. 

Ship Twrote:

This question was not directed to me, but I just listened to this podcast with Bob G. (The Climbing Majority Podcast). In one part (at about 1:18:00) he talks about the state of bolting in jtree and America, and he describes his process a little bit.  The current state of bolting seems in a sad place.

https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/www.buzzsprout.com/1902269/episodes/17097955-92-an-untold-life-w-bob-gaines.mp3

maybe jtree has a ban for now?  But the proposed ban for wilderness in general has been removed.

Don't worry about it. Your favorite crag, back country camping spot and for the rednecks hunting and fishing spots are all going to be sold to foreign mining companies. Chain link fence and a big fat no trespassing sign.