HowNot2 12mm sleeve bolts

Be aware that the 12mm sleeve bolts from Taiwan (HowNot2) are not 12mm. The sleeve does not fit in a 12mm hanger hole. You can put a 3/8" hanger on the bolt but it is not as strong as the hanger on the sleeve and the recommended way to do it by Fixe, Petzl, ASCA, etc. youtu.be/AK7XaWmarzw?featur… Great price but I suspect quality control issues if they can't get the diameter right, so buyer beware. Also, because they are fatter than 12mm they are a bitch to hammer into a 12mm hole.

From the product page on HowNot2, "For hanger hole size & bolt diameter interaction (e.g. the hanger going on the hex bolt vs. the sleeve), we have some observations based off testing HERE of the pros and cons. Our current preferred configuration for the 12mm sleeve bolt is using a 10mm (3/8") hole hanger that goes on the hex bolt. For 10mm sleeve bolts, either configuration is fine, yet the hanger on the bolt is still our preferred way."

It would appear that the sleeve is not supposed to fit through the hole in the hanger.

They recommend not putting the hanger over the sleeve with a google doc explaining why. If you do choose to there is an asterisk making sure your hanger fits. It sounds like yours don't, which isn't that surprising. Metric hangers seem to be designed to fit over bolts and not sleeves.

The hanger issue aside, try hammering in a 12.4mm bolt into a drilled 12mm hole. I wouldn't recommend these bolts. The configuration is always stronger with the hanger on the sleeve than just on the bolt. That's how Fixe, Petzl, and ASCA all recommend it with Powers sleeve bolts.  Same principle. It logically makes more sense that it would be stronger sitting on more metal than just the bolt.    

Brianwrote:

The hanger issue aside, try hammering in a 12.4mm bolt into a drilled 12mm hole. I wouldn't recommend these bolts. The configuration is always stronger with the hanger on the sleeve than just on the bolt. That's how Fixe, Petzl, and ASCA all recommend it with Powers sleeve bolts.  Same principle. It logically makes more sense that it would be stronger sitting on more metal than just the bolt.    

I’ve found them easy to drive in. That configuration is only stronger in sheer. With outward pull, it can be catastrophic, especially if the bolt gets loose, which does happen. Look up some of the forums on the Fixe triplex. If the nut loosens, and you used the “correct hanger” you can yank the whole anchor out by hand.

Powers are a totally different bolt, and the hanger does not rest on the expansion sleeve, but on the little spacer. 

Edit to respond: On the longer 5-piece the same is true. the sleeves are split by the compression ring, so you still are not pulling out directly on the expansion sleeve. 

There was a long thread I just found on these bolts and the debate of the hanger on the bolt versus on the sleeve like other hanger manufacturers recommend.   mountainproject.com/forum/t… I just don't understand why they oversize their sleeve bolts making them difficult to install. I think it may not be intentional which suggests quality control issues.  BTW...I had a brand new 12mm drill bit.  Peter, the hanger sits on a spacer only on very short Power's bolts. All others it sits on the metal sleeve. I would post a photo but I've run out of allowed responses. 

I’ve placed more than 50 of these bolts so far. From sandstone to bullet hard granite and have had great success. Unfortunate to hear that the bolts you have won’t fit. 

Brianwrote:

The hanger issue aside, try hammering in a 12.4mm bolt into a drilled 12mm hole. ...

Brian, Are you power drilling? If yes, and you are using a 2-cutter SDS bit, the hole will be tight due to the Reuleaux triangle shape of the hole. Perhaps try using a fresh 4-cutter bit, such as, the Bosch "Extreme". The hole will be more round, so effectively slightly larger in diameter.

Brianwrote:

The hanger issue aside, try hammering in a 12.4mm bolt into a drilled 12mm hole. I wouldn't recommend these bolts. The configuration is always stronger with the hanger on the sleeve than just on the bolt. That's how Fixe, Petzl, and ASCA all recommend it with Powers sleeve bolts.  Same principle. It logically makes more sense that it would be stronger sitting on more metal than just the bolt.    

Hey Brian,

I haven't placed any of the climbing Taiwan bolts, but it's normal for some components of a sleeve bolt to be larger than the stated diameter of the recommended bit. Most hammer drill bits will drill bigger than the stated diameter when new, I.E. a 1/2" or 12.7MM bit will drill approximately a 13mm hole when new.  Are you having issues hammering them in?

W/e difference in strength it's immaterial. 

If you don't like it, then don't use them. But you really just don't understand what the weak link is in your anchor. 

Hint: It ain't a 12mm sleeve bolt (10mm rod stock). There are several things you might connect to it and they all break under lower forces. Slings, hangers, carabiners.....the climber.

Stop slandering people over your imagined "quality problems". It says right on the website what to use.

The fault is yours and no one else's.

I originally ordered the 1/2" x 80mm and the sleeves measure close to 12.4mm. i recently ordered some 12mm x 120mm and the sleeve is a hair under 12mm (~11.9mm). As Kevin from climbing Taiwan stated in the other thread, everything else (bolt shaft and cone) measures the same between the two, the only difference was the sleeve.

So if your sleeves are measuring ~12.4, maybe you received the 1/2" sleeve version? If so, the sleeve itself will be marked as 1/2"

I haven't installed any of these yet but made a quick review video for first impression:

Brianwrote:

The hanger issue aside, try hammering in a 12.4mm bolt into a drilled 12mm hole. I wouldn't recommend these bolts. The configuration is always stronger with the hanger on the sleeve than just on the bolt. That's how Fixe, Petzl, and ASCA all recommend it with Powers sleeve bolts.  Same principle. It logically makes more sense that it would be stronger sitting on more metal than just the bolt.    

I get a huge chuckle out of this as the 3/8 x2 1/4" and 1/2 x 2 3/4"  Rawl Bolts (names changed so much might as well go back to original) will both have the plastic sleeve inside the bolt hanger. Not much strength added there. Those are the sizes I use the most in hard rock.

timothy fisherwrote:

I get a huge chuckle out of this as the 3/8 x2 1/4" and 1/2 x 2 3/4"  Rawl Bolts (names changed so much might as well go back to original) will both have the plastic sleeve inside the bolt hanger. Not much strength added there. Those are the sizes I use the most in hard rock.

Yep.

No one cries about "quality" problems there (and they have had them too in the past).

timothy fisherwrote:

I get a huge chuckle out of this as the 3/8 x2 1/4" and 1/2 x 2 3/4"  Rawl Bolts (names changed so much might as well go back to original) will both have the plastic sleeve inside the bolt hanger. Not much strength added there. Those are the sizes I use the most in hard rock.

I find that when I use these shorter Rawl bolts and torque them to spec the plastic compresses (squishes) enough that the hanger is sitting on the metal sleeve.. 

Brianwrote:

There was a long thread I just found on these bolts and the debate of the hanger on the bolt versus on the sleeve like other hanger manufacturers recommend.   mountainproject.com/forum/t… I just don't understand why they oversize their sleeve bolts making them difficult to install. I think it may not be intentional which suggests quality control issues.  BTW...I had a brand new 12mm drill bit.  Peter, the hanger sits on a spacer only on very short Power's bolts. All others it sits on the metal sleeve. I would post a photo but I've run out of allowed responses. 

Hi Brian. We appreciate you taking your time to share your experience and feedback with the CTW 12mm 316SS sleeve bolts. It’s helpful in understanding and identifying issues to where we can do better, and have better information on our end. 

I’m just going to overshare (and some points might be repeated from earlier posts in the other thread): 

To begin, the sleeve component in general has been the trickiest component to source on this style of 4-piece sleeve bolt. Sheet metal thickness and what the factory can pull off with stricter diameter tolerance, there can be a slight range between variants of sizes, grades, and what factory is making them, (and yes different factories are making our different sleeve sizes/grades). For example, one will find the sleeves of CTW’s 12mm*80mm 304 sleeve bolts to have a circumference of about 38.5mm, and the 316 12*80mm is about 39mm. So the 316 12mm sleeve bolts are going to be on the slightly wider end. This can affect the amount of friction the sleeve is having on the inside of the hole thus requiring more blows of the hammer, (in addition to being one continuous sleeve contributing to a measure of friction),. When it becomes too many blows (because it’s too tight of a fit), it’ll first smoosh the embossed text onto the hex head and even risk the top of the sleeve mushrooming if the friction becomes too great.*** On this note, I compared sleeves of our 12mm 316mm “0824” batch to our latest “0425” batch, and they're the same specs, so no known “QC” issue found here.***

I’m gonna talk about drill bits, because after seeing this thread this morning, drilling some holes in hard quartz sandstone, and installing some bolts, I think it's the primary culprit here and another big variable out there in general for successful/botched bolt installations. 

Referencing the ANSI B212.15 chart Dan Merrick shared, 12mm has a diameter “min of 12.2mm and max of 12.5mm”. I took a pair of calipers to CTW’s 12mm generic 4-cutter drill bits which read on average 12.25 mm. The Bosch 4-cutter is 12.4 mm. The bolts that went in the generic drill bit’s hole I noticed went in normal, but snuggly, like if more material on the tip wore down to make smaller holes, I’d begin to get worried. Whereas with the Bosch, it went smooth and standard. —(I haven’t done much testing and installations with 2-cutter bits, cause 4-cutter is all I primarily buy and we carry).--- ***So our recommendation for the current batch of 12mm 316SS sleeve bolts is to use 4-cutter higher quality drill bits, and if they get too worn, it’s a good idea to chase or finish the hole with a fresher bit. (I’ll update the HN2 product page with this info).***

Next issue: Hanger hole size

So interestingly, there is variation between different brands and their hanger hole side. For example, Petzl’s 316SS COEUR, the 10mm is 10.7mm and their 12mm is 12.75 mm. Fixe Hardware’s ½” is 13mm, whereas Lappas ½” current 304SS batch is 12.7mm (and Lappas said future batches will be 13mm). CTW’s 10mm is 10.5mm, and 12mm is 12.8mm. Other brand’s 12mm we’ve measured to be closer to 12mm. So when choosing a hanger to go over the sleeve, this can become an issue depending on the brand/batch one buys. ***We gotta double check and add on the HN2 product page for every hanger the actual hanger hole size.***

Hanger over sleeve vs bolt shank: 

In radial loads, yes, the extra material of the sleeve can add a few more kilonewtons of strength (for 12mm, like 6kN more (50 to 56), for 10mm, like 5kN (32 kN to 37kN). But in axial loads, different things can happen depending on the sleeve bolt type/design. In axial loads, the hanger acts as a class 2 lever, this will bite down/grab whatever is in the hanger hole. For sleeve bolts with one continuous sleeve, the hanger presses the sleeve against the bolt, then pulls it out as one piece (happens on CTW 12mm sleeve bolts, but for the 10mm ones the bolt will break because it reaches the threshold of either configuration). For our 12mm sleeve bolts, you get a reduction of strength from 50kN+ (breaking) to 30+kN (pull out) failure mode…but yeah, would still pass EN959. Regarding what happens for other brand’s sleeve bolts with a climbing hanger, other than HN2’s tests of the Powers 5-piece , and Matt has some HERE, but like I honestly haven't seen much other testing out there in general.   *** Which is why our recommended configuration with CTW’s sleeve bolt is with hangers over the hex bolt. We’ve gotten the same break results in both tension and shear cause the bolt head breaks and it ensures the sleeve gets expanded in the proper manner with the cone being pulled up into it, the sleeve is isolated.***  ( And if guys insist on putting the hanger over the sleeve with CTW bolts, then make sure the hanger is loosish on the sleeve and use them on face/slab climbs, and not overhangs where they’ll get primarily axially-loaded.)

Other factors that could make installation harder: If the conical nut by chance is sorta tightened (pre-expanding the sleeve before installation). Dirty or holes not brushed blown very well. Holes not drilled straight. 

I don't know of any perfect bolt out there, I typically find pros and cons to each...price also being a big driving factor for us developers. We are currently working on another design of sleeve bolt, and striving to make it still affordable. Additional machining, components, etc, all add onto the price tag. 

Brianwrote:

I find that when I use these shorter Rawl bolts and torque them to spec the plastic compresses (squishes) enough that the hanger is sitting on the metal sleeve.. 

It is easy to damage the plastic installing the bolt.  A missed blow that hits the hanger can damage the sleeve. 

I have replaced hundreds of rusty short 5 piece bolts where the sleeves were intact, so I dont believe the sleeve will be that crushed when properly installed. 

Kevin Maliczakwrote:

 ***So our recommendation for the current batch of 12mm 316SS sleeve bolts is to use 4-cutter higher quality drill bits, and if they get too worn, it’s a good idea to chase or finish the hole with a fresher bit. (I’ll update the HN2 product page with this info).***

Maybe i'm reading this wrong but are you saying you recommend not using the generic drill bits you are selling and to only use Bosch, etc?  If so, why sell the generic ones?

Adam Wwrote:

Maybe i'm reading this wrong but are you saying you recommend not using the generic drill bits you are selling and to only use Bosch, etc?  If so, why sell the generic ones?

The generic drill bits work acceptably well for a time but wear faster. 

If you buy cheap bits and are using a bolt with close tolerances, be advised that as the bit wears you may need a fresh bit sooner.

Or, use a different type of bolt.

Sprayloard Overstokerwrote:

The generic drill bits work acceptably well for a time but wear faster. 

If you buy cheap bits and are using a bolt with close tolerances, be advised that as the bit wears you may need a fresh bit sooner.

Or, use a different type of bolt.

This.

Basically both the generic and Bosch are within spec for the standard and work for the CTW 316 12mm sleeve bolts, and definitely non-issue for the 304 12mm sleeve bolts.

But because the generic drill bit is closer to the allowed minimum of the standard and the 316 sleeves are on the slightly wider end*, best to go with a higher quality bit that's already wider and has tips that last longer. 

*(This is our current recommendation for this batch. We'll talk to the factory to see if they can get future batches of the 12mm 316 sleeves closer to the 12mm 304 dimensions). 

Thanks Kevin.  Excellent explanation.  I will use a 4-cutter bit and ream the hole out with multiple passes.  I had exactly that issue of the sleeve mushrooming by catching on the hole. And the Raumer 12mm hangers did not fit. I will wait until I have some 1/2" or 3/8" hangers to use the bolts.  Great customer support also. (He offered to compensate me for my order.)
Brian