Who owns the route?

Not Not MP Admin wrote:

You can literally change which holds you use on a Moonboard. There are no “wrong holds” when you can change the lights to use whichever holds you want in 10 seconds. That’s a horrible example. Luckily the youths are so strong these days they don’t really need to chip holds like the blue heads had to. I mean didn’t that British guy just do V17 in a session?! 

Take the route pogo v6 on the moonboard. You can’t do it. You add a black hold out left, the app doesn’t let you create it because it exists baby pogo v5. Adding the hold changes the score you get from sending.

It’s a lot easier to get credibility here if you just tick pogo v6 rather than even do the v5.

The whole reason to chip a hold on an existing route is to get the esteem of sending it but making it easier. I don’t see people doing this very often in the gym but maybe there are more examples.

T Taylor wrote:

Take the route pogo v6 on the moonboard. You can’t do it. You add a black hold out left, the app doesn’t let you create it because it exists baby pogo v5. Adding the hold changes the score you get from sending.

It’s a lot easier to get credibility here if you just tick pogo v6 rather than even do the v5.

The whole reason to chip a hold on an existing route is to get the esteem of sending it but making it easier. I don’t see people doing this very often in the gym but maybe there are more examples.

You just gave an example with Pogo vs Baby Pogo.

My point still stands, the youths are strong enough these days they don't need to chip holds anymore. 

Chad Miller wrote:

Incorrect.

If you pee on the rock you control all routes below said stream.  Highest pee wins.

I disagree. Not that it matters as I have peed from the top of every route, in every place, before and after anyone has. I checked with the judge (my dog), and she agrees I own all routes.

Bolting Karen wrote:

I disagree. Not that it matters as I have peed from the top of every route, in every place, before and after anyone has. I checked with the judge (my dog), and she agrees I own all routes.

Actually your dog owns all the routes.   

Nobody “Owns” a route. Even if it’s on public property. The public doesn’t own it, the FA doesn’t own it, you don’t own it and neither do I. It’s not a matter of ownership, and we shouldn’t view it as such. We simply “have” a route. And there is a difference between owning and having. Everyone should respect the FA style, and the FA style should respect the history and tradition of the area which it resides. It is not a perfect system, but you must understand, a perfect system does not exist. It relies on the personal responsibility and accountability of each and every individual, and there in lies its flaws. Mutual respect for the FA and the history and traditions must be maintained. This requires a certain morality among climbers. Without it, the system collapses and must be brought under control through authoritarian means, or descend into anarchy. Which is good for no one, except the authority or the one who wields the biggest sword.  

Salamanizer Ski wrote:

Nobody “Owns” a route. Even if it’s on public property. The public doesn’t own it, the FA doesn’t own it, you don’t own it and neither do I. It’s not a matter of ownership, and we shouldn’t view it as such. We simply “have” a route. And there is a difference between owning and having. Everyone should respect the FA style, and the FA style should respect the history and tradition of the area which it resides. It is not a perfect system, but you must understand, a perfect system does not exist. It relies on the personal responsibility and accountability of each and every individual, and there in lies its flaws. Mutual respect for the FA and the history and traditions must be maintained. This requires a certain morality among climbers. Without it, the system collapses and must be brought under control through authoritarian means, or descend into anarchy. Which is good for no one, except the authority or the one who wields the biggest sword.  

Nah

nbrown wrote:

^ Amen to this. We see this BS all the time in the Front Range (no surprise) as well. Can't even get the complainers to bring a f'ing wrench to the crag... so I doubt they'll ever actually do any bolting. 

yeah I think the overlap between people who don't know how the sausage is made and those who have the skills and tools to actually move/add bolts is 2 circles.

There will always be those that complain about stuff. Heck there are a lot of routes that I climb where I kind of wish it was bolted differently, even in the front range on some somewhat popular/highly rated stuff. Some of that is that people have different opinions on how things should be done, which is why I don't generally complain unless I think there is either a danger of someone getting hurt or if it is truly bad (but usually the former). I wouldn't want my route to have a bunch of comments wishing bolt 5 was a few feet lower or whatever if it was still probably fine. 

Humility is understanding as a human developer you can make mistakes, but wisdom is understanding that not all complaints are worth "fixing".

The bigger question here is: 

Do you actually Own Yourself?

The Exfoliator wrote:

The bigger question here is: 

Do you actually Own Yourself?

The answer to that isn't as simple as you'd think.

Hmmm…that is an interesting question. Especially since hard-core Libertarians now enthusiastically cheer on a fully authoritarian regime. But hey, at least you’re free to own the Libs, right? :-/

The Exfoliator wrote:

The bigger question here is: 

Do you actually Own Yourself?

The answer to that isn't as simple as you'd think.

If someone pees on you don’t. 

Chad Miller wrote:

If someone pees on you don’t. 

Depends on if you paid them, I believe

hillbilly hijinks wrote:

Then along comes someone with little to no experience who gets upset they don't have what it takes to climb some routes. They want to add more bolts and chip holds. Much angst. They don't have a leg to stand on...It's almost always someone who has never put up routes, let alone drilled on lead, that wants bolts added for themselves.

See I think the conversation always gets oversimplified.  Its not like on one side you have all the experienced climbers and developers arguing for ethics and on the other side you have inexperienced gym climbers arguing to add bolts. 

The truth is, many of my friends and I have been climbing for decades, climbed all over the world, bolted routes, done first ascents locally and internationally and WE are the ones upset. WE are the ones that don't believe the FA should dictate how many bolts a route has.  Unfortunately, climbing is a gerontocracy

I do. End of discussion 

No, me. Discuss. 

Dan Bookless wrote:

See I think the conversation always gets oversimplified.  Its not like on one side you have all the experienced climbers and developers arguing for ethics and on the other side you have inexperienced gym climbers arguing to add bolts. 

The truth is, many of my friends and I have been climbing for decades, climbed all over the world, bolted routes, done first ascents locally and internationally and WE are the ones upset. WE are the ones that don't believe the FA should dictate how many bolts a route has.  Unfortunately, climbing is a gerontocracy

What system do you propose as a replacement? Some areas have moved to other systems with success, but I think it requires a large degree of agreement for this to work without devolving into bolt wars. 

My free climbing goal at 66 is to get good enough to again lead one of my FA's in it's original form, so I can justify chopping all the added bolts. 

Dan Bookless wrote:

See I think the conversation always gets oversimplified.  Its not like on one side you have all the experienced climbers and developers arguing for ethics and on the other side you have inexperienced gym climbers arguing to add bolts. 

The truth is, many of my friends and I have been climbing for decades, climbed all over the world, bolted routes, done first ascents locally and internationally and WE are the ones upset. WE are the ones that don't believe the FA should dictate how many bolts a route has.  Unfortunately, climbing is a gerontocracy

I kind of agree, but think there's a trichotomy at work:

1) Inexperienced/new climbers want some climbs to have more bolts

2) Over the hill (almost there myself) climbers who have put up routes they can no longer safely lead, therefore they say "sure, add bolts to my routes" - kinda nice to feel relevant and leave a legacy of popular routes than to see them (and you yourself) fade into mossy obscurity

3) Everyone else (99% of whom don't own drills and will never add bolts no matter how much they'd like to - which is why this thread is only 1% anything other than idle chatter)

PS - Dan while it's great you and your worldly buddies don't care who bolts your routes, what about other FA parties who do care? Your comments don't suggest a workable solution that's better than giving respect to the FA and not adding bolts against their wishes

Salamanizer Ski wrote:

Nobody “Owns” a route. Even if it’s on public property. The public doesn’t own it, the FA doesn’t own it, you don’t own it and neither do I. It’s not a matter of ownership, and we shouldn’t view it as such. We simply “have” a route. And there is a difference between owning and having. Everyone should respect the FA style, and the FA style should respect the history and tradition of the area which it resides. It is not a perfect system, but you must understand, a perfect system does not exist. It relies on the personal responsibility and accountability of each and every individual, and there in lies its flaws. Mutual respect for the FA and the history and traditions must be maintained. This requires a certain morality among climbers. Without it, the system collapses and must be brought under control through authoritarian means, or descend into anarchy. Which is good for no one, except the authority or the one who wields the biggest sword.  

Yeah. 

BTW, I specifically didn't say I would chop the above mentioned bolts. I will decide what to do if and when I lead the route. And if I clip any of them, I won't remove any of them. 

Dan Bookless wrote:

See I think the conversation always gets oversimplified.  Its not like on one side you have all the experienced climbers and developers arguing for ethics and on the other side you have inexperienced gym climbers arguing to add bolts. 

The truth is, many of my friends and I have been climbing for decades, climbed all over the world, bolted routes, done first ascents locally and internationally and WE are the ones upset. WE are the ones that don't believe the FA should dictate how many bolts a route has.  Unfortunately, climbing is a gerontocracy

Sport climbers of the world,

Bolt it over

What was the question?