Dog tags

Brandon Rwrote:

Does exaggerating or misrepresenting people's positions count as a strawman? Nobody cares what they're doing in Europe. And this self-imposed problem that the OP has could be solved with much less impact (first bolt hanger engraved). Or just use the guidebook. Or just add more routes/pictures to MP. Why choose the most impactful option?

 Assuming you're not being sarcastic, do you remember this? https://www.kqed.org/news/10988875/woman-pleads-guilty-to-defacing-rocks-at-7-national-parks I'm sure she was having fun at the time. 

In public spaces, we should strive to minimize our impact to what's most necessary. Notice I said minimize, not eliminate. We'll keep our crags longer if we avoid turning them into disneyland. Anyway, the fun part is supposed to be the climbing, right? And we choose to do it outdoors instead of indoors because we appreciate nature and stuff, right?

There’s a difference between labeling a route with an artistic painted rock and defacing rocks, unless, of course, you want to admit that bolts are equally defacing? You are logically cornered there.

Something I appreciated at a couple crags I've been to were small pebbles at the base of the routes , with the name, grade and pro needed , written in sharpie. Not a permanent fixture. Clear and concise. Unobtrusive, they would only be seen if you were looking for them. However, I do raise my hackles towards pieces of metal being affixed to the rock for some reason... Kinda seems like defacement. 

I think for traveling climbers looking to do some single pitch at some random crag, it's a nice convenience to get oriented. Are people really expected to pay $50 for a book they will use for 2 days? I'm a guidebook fanatic but even so, often I don't have opportunity to purchase - or there simply isn't one available. 

I've put up a lot of routes at a crag which isn't in a guidebook and not on MP and I've taken to this practice. If people don't like it, that's fine, they can throw the pebbles into the woods or keep it as a souvenir. Maybe I'll put a new one there. Not a big deal.  

This.  Our last trip we bought the book to the RRG despite being told we didn't need it and it is obsolete.. Then we got rained out.  We hit three other sport crags on the trip and had no Internet for one of them and slow Internet for the other. Euro tags or sharpie pebbles would have been awesome.  No one is telling the desert hardmen that they are soft for scratching the rt name on small rock at the base of climbs. 

When I was in Joshua Tree over the winter I personally enjoyed all the signage. It was helpful to know what crag I was approaching or otherwise. I was thinking we could use a few signs in Indian Creek in Donnelly Canyon to stop all of the crossing social trails that pop up because folks get on the wrong trail leaving the lot.

As for signs on crags or routes, it’s very helpful when I visit a crag for the first time and you can ID a route. In Indian Creek this often due to a plaque. I appreciate them. This is usually coupled with the guidebook though. Find a route, work my way around the crag with that as the anchor route.

Jared Kohliwrote:

Yeah you heard me right - I want more DOG TAGS to indicate routes - also literally any other indication such as route names on wood signs or I've even seen rocks painted with route names but I am so sick of having to load my pictures on mountain project to play the matching game and/or not have a clue because some routes straight up just don't have pictures and will just be like "start on the wall". I think a 90¢ dog tag or otherwise small aluminum plate with the route engraved would be a godsend. I've only ever seen it done in Muir Valley RRG, but I wish it was done everywhere (particularly sport climbs) 

I get not wanting to buy a guidebook to an area that you're just making a quick trip to. But asking other people to buy, create, then glue a tag to the bottom of each route "everywhere", RATHER than asking that people simply put better identifying photos and descriptions on MP, seems asinine to me. I mean, maybe they even make some sense in certain highly concentrated, grid-bolted places with no discernible features to orient yourself with, AND with no land managers or others who might be upset by the visual impact. But you're literally advocating that they be placed "everywhere". So what this thread asks isn't so much about "have you found them useful in certain situations?", which is what most people here seem to be answering, but rather, do you want them on all routes, at all crags? Just a quick trip to Yosemite with your family? Glued on name tags at Mecca (a sport crag for those not familiar). 

they should not be most places but they could be at sport crags and it would be  super useful.  The only two places I have encountered them was Kamuraska and  snow canyon.  Snow canyon super useful because it was before smart phones and Kamuraska super useful because our phones don't work in Canada and the guide is mostly useless.  Think its a great idea for Mtwishicouldtella spots. They won't be on the internet and if some one finds your secrete stash  they will know what they are getting on.  The name , grade and an S for sport and M for mixed. I like Ira's little rock method. 

While I can kinda understand (if I squint and look sideways a bit) the rationale for dog tags at some sport crags, exactly who is going to make the judgement as to where this is an acceptable practice, and where it's not? The climbing 'community' hasn't really demonstrated especially great judgement about climbing impacts as the years have gone on. Further, these kinds of 'development' practices will certainly be perfect fodder for any anti-climbing land manager.

I think dogs at the crag should definitely wear their tags. Especially their rabies tag.

I know that’s not what you guys are mulling over. But I got bit by a dog without a tag recently, and so this is the issue I feel strongly about.

One of my favorite crags and developers puts a tiny one inch circle tag just stamped with the grade on the first bolt of his routes. You can’t even see it till you’re on top of it and it allows you to explore the large area and just hop on lines that look fun knowing the grade which matters. I’d be happy to see that elsewhere also 

apogeewrote:

While I can kinda understand (if I squint and look sideways a bit) the rationale for dog tags at some sport crags, exactly who is going to make the judgement as to where this is an acceptable practice, and where it's not? The climbing 'community' hasn't really demonstrated especially great judgement about climbing impacts as the years have gone on. Further, these kinds of 'development' practices will certainly be perfect fodder for any anti-climbing land manager.

I agree with this. I am very anti signage and pro low-impact. But I also like being able to figure out which route is which, especially at a sport crag where all the routes look similar, there are already tons of bolts, and it doesn't feel very wilderness-y. Even mp continuously references "third route left of such and such" .. a small impermanent marker set on the ground at the base gives enough beta to get oriented but it can be thrown away at any time without leaving a hole, glue residue or any other defacement on the rock... 

Maple Canyon has something similar and I love it. The initials of most of the climbs are written in chalk at the base. Extremely useful because every route looks exactly the same with the conglomerate. It's way more practical than "furthest route left at the crag."

The funny part of this is I’ve appreciated well marked routes but I wouldn’t want it at any of my favorite crags. 

Tanner Jameswrote:

One of my favorite crags and developers puts a tiny one inch circle tag just stamped with the grade on the first bolt of his routes. You can’t even see it till you’re on top of it and it allows you to explore the large area and just hop on lines that look fun knowing the grade which matters. I’d be happy to see that elsewhere also 

This is what I thought we were talking about this whole time. Someone said gluing tags to the rock, is that actually done anywhere? I always imagined the tag like this, stamped, hung from the first bolt.

Cory Nwrote:

This is what I thought we were talking about this whole time. Someone said gluing tags to the rock, is that actually done anywhere? I always imagined the tag like this, stamped, hung from the first bolt.

This is what I was talking about - seems some of those guys had an issue with anything that isn't full alpine near death experiences 

Actually, some people prefer to not see climbing areas turn into sanitized McDonalds Playlands, that’s all.

apogeewrote:

Actually, some people prefer to not see climbing areas turn into sanitized McDonalds Playlands, that’s all.

I hear ya. We all want to be able to pretend we are the first humans ever exploring a place. I mean, we don’t want the choss and risk of actually going up a new line. But we want to be able to pretend.

I prefer to read some stoners description of a route while looking at a picture he took in winter, from a vantage point nobody has ever been to with superimposed blue and red lines that at least one has been drawn in error. With route numbers inexplicably counting right to left.

It’s not annoying at all and rather than a frustrating experience, I consider this the best part of my day.

Again. It's just sports climbing.. 

Ira OMCwrote:

However, I do raise my hackles towards pieces of metal being affixed to the rock for some reason... Kinda seems like defacement. 

"It seems like defacement to have one piece of metal attached to the rock, directly beneath a bunch of other pieces of metal attached to the rock that I have absolutely no problem with!"

Good work OP, this thread is HILARIOUS.

apogeewrote:

Actually, some people prefer to not see climbing areas turn into sanitized McDonalds Playlands, that’s all.

You're right.

We need to chop those walls riddled with bolts that make our cliffs look like interstate highways that are just playgrounds for those too soft to get yeeted on gear.