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Trad fall at Indian Creek Crag RRG 4-27
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Interesting video of another draws unclipping itself, different scenario but sort of interesting... |
J D wrote: Not sure if everybody has seen this |
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Does anyone know how the climber is doing? I'm not a member of that Facebook group, so I can't follow the link. Godspeed on his recovery. |
Marc801 C wrote: They were climbing and the rope got clipped into a a lower carabiner. |
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In Austin's photo, the scenario of the rope re-clipping the lower carabineer can only happen "on its own" in a fall where the upper piece holds on long enough for some tension in the lead line to be developed. But Austin says this happens about 1x per year, but WITHOUT FALLING. So I think what might be happening here is that 1. Austin is Z-clipping two closely placed pieces or 2. After he clips the upper piece, the belayer removes some slack in the system with Austin's harness still lower than the rope biner on the lower piece and the lead line pushes into the lower biner. I myself have experienced scenarios 1. and 2. above several times in 30+ years, but it's not something to worry about because after you make a move or two you realize something is wrong and you reach down and fix it before continuing the climb. I tend to z-clip "a lot" when I climb in a gym because the bolts are so close together and I'm used to climbing outside in places where the bolts are never close enough to z-clip, unless you have an 8' wingspan. That and I tend to not pay attention as much in a gym... a bad habit, I know. |
bob steed wrote: Hi Bob, you might want to go back and re- read the first paragraph in Austin's post on page 3. |
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To expand on my previous post, I think the way a double-clip usually happens is the climber's rope gets "clotheslined" by a lower piece you swing by it. Climbs with a uniform geometry where the rope easily pulls away from the wall makes this more likely:  Here is a spot on a climb where a double-clip happened twice (though not on this attempt; the top carabiner skates off the edge of the crack in the next frame). The lower piece gets pulled outward as I fall, and during the leftward pendulum the rope slams into the lower carabiner. On later attempts I would place the lower piece with the gate facing left to avoid this. Due to the physics it does seem unlikely for the top piece to fail once the lower is clipped, but that's not that comforting when you look up and just see your shitty top piece holding you.   |
Carter Fulton wrote: I heard the same narrative from somewhere too. |
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7:25 is the exact same break as the picture from the accident |
Blakevan wrote: I think this is off topic (sarc). But I hope they are ok or are going to be ok. |
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To circle back to somebody asking if carabiners are more likely to unclip when unconstrained, like on an alpine draw, I'm not sure if you're all talking about the same thing. In accident reports I've read, the loose carabiner generally unclips from the SLING, not the rope, and constraining it like on a quickdraw means it basically can't come unclipped from the sling without some serious misfortune. Are there any stories of a wiregate fixed on the rope end of a quickdraw coming unclipped from the rope? I've seen it happen with solid gates, but only sport climbing. I don't think most people are using solid gates for alpine draws or trad climbing in general. I've seen the loose rope-side carabiner on extended alpine draws do lots of weird things including unclip from the sling when they were a couple pieces below me during a fall (so it wasn't consequential). I have changed my rope-side carabiners a couple times based on how I see them sitting and getting hung up unfavorably on the nose just from rope movement while I'm climbing above. I experimented with the rope-end rubber bands on alpine draws which I actually really liked but wasn't worth the risk of a climbing partner clipping it wrong and getting hurt. Making alpine draws from rabbit runners or those super expensive blue ice runners that constrain the carabiners might be a better option. I do carry an alpine draw with 2x edelrid sliders on it and surprisingly use it all the time for clipping that critical piece or a lone bolt between bad gear or random stuff on multipitches. For harder trad climbs where I might fall, I actually prefer using mostly long, skinny dyneema quickdraws (18 to 30cm) with fixed rope-side carabiners, then saving alpine draws for places where I really need full extension. No chance of the rope-side carabiner unclipping from the sling, and seems like a super low chance of it coming off the rope. Side effect is it's a lot faster to clip when you're pumped and less risk of tangles & faffeing. Doesn't save you from bending a carabiner over an edge, or scraping one on the rock and opening the gate, but you can mitigate those risks in other ways. |
