A Concerning Pattern: Z4 Cam Deformation After Falls

I broke a 0.75 Z4 after a single lead fall. The metal deformed such that the lobes would not retract at all, making it completely unusable. A few notes on the fall:

- It was definitely not a perfect placement. It looked like the cam had torqued downwards in the crack which I think is what caused the metal to warp like it did.

- It was in Ontario limestone, which is notorious for not taking cam placements well.

- The piece didn't pop, and held a decent fall (my feet were ~5 or 6 feet above the piece, I was 170lb).

To be fair to BD, they sent me a brand new one free of charge after I sent mine in. For what its worth, I have taken plenty of falls on my other Z4s and have never had the same issue.

Lovegasoline Love wrote:

Is it their own problem (only larger Z4s) or a problem shared by all sizes?

All Z4s use the same delicate materials. I've repaired sizes 0.3 to 0.75; the largest accounting for the majority of the failures.

Austin Donisan wrote:

I've broken 9 Z4s (2 0.3, 5 .4s, 2 .5s) (plus a .4 X4) from the lobes bending all from very normal usage. One even from just a TR fall when used as a directional.

!!!

Miles Eastwood wrote:

I broke a 0.75 Z4 after a single lead fall. The metal deformed such that the lobes would not retract at all, making it completely unusable.

What's the problem ... metal too malleable ? Lobe design? Insufficient clearance between lobes (rendering any deformation fatal)?

For what it's worth, my most-fallen-on piece is a 0.3 Z4, which has held at least 5 or 6 small falls (piece near my feet generally) and still works, but all of that was in smooth granite. One of my buddies has broken 2 or 3 of them in the 0.3-0.4 range, but some of those were in Jtree or were bad placements that ripped. I think rougher rocks are way more likely to dent that thin part of the lobes. 

I have all of the Z4s (#0-0.75) and I like the double-axle Z4s as they have a big range, great trigger feel and fit in slightly smaller places than the "same" size Totems. I do think single-axle solid-lobed cams are generally more durable in the smaller sizes, unless they break somewhere else like trigger wires. I have an old yellow alien that I bootied and have whipped on a few times and it is still working & trustworthy, just annoyingly floppy by comparison. That said, if I broke a Z4, I might buy another as already having a rack of Z4 makes replacing one more appealing than selling and replacing the whole range with a different brand. I don't really like the feeling of the WC Zero Friends and I like having 2 different sets of cams (the other rack being Totems). Metolius or aliens in BD size 0.75 and under would be more appealing if the sizing and color schemes weren't different, but eventually I might shift that way long before I broke 9 Z4s like that other guy. 

Miles Eastwood wrote:

I broke a 0.75 Z4 after a single lead fall. The metal deformed such that the lobes would not retract at all, making it completely unusable. A few notes on the fall:

- It was definitely not a perfect placement. It looked like the cam had torqued downwards in the crack which I think is what caused the metal to warp like it did.

- It was in Ontario limestone, which is notorious for not taking cam placements well.

- The piece didn't pop, and held a decent fall (my feet were ~5 or 6 feet above the piece, I was 170lb).

To be fair to BD, they sent me a brand new one free of charge after I sent mine in. For what its worth, I have taken plenty of falls on my other Z4s and have never had the same issue.

I'd rather have that than my 0.75 with the fraying trigger wire (likely from packing in a bag with other cams). looks like your damage is possible to file down whereas the trigger wire I'd want to preserve the solid wire and rewire / reswage. I don't have the tools / wire for that. I'm not buying any more z4s, one of each is enough.

I'm sure this is more mental pro than anything, but I find the continued deformation of the lobes to be an asset. I have fallen on my .5 Z4s a couple dozen times (hard size); they need to be touched up with a file every couple falls. I'd rather the metal deform and have the thing catch me than break the rock or skate out of a crack. I find them to be bomber, fragile little butterflies.

I'm yet to break or fray a trigger wire *shrug*

I’ve broken 4 .5 Z4s at this point. Two of which were warranty replacements for the first two. I love how they place, but I just don’t have the money to invest in cams that aren’t built to last, especially when you are projecting and consistently whipping on your gear. I’ve slowly been replacing the Z4s on my rack with totems. Totems have similar width/ placement range, but are way more durable.

I have C4s from 2017 that are in significantly better shape than all of the Z4s I bought in 2021. The cam metal is softer,  the wires are less durable, and the bendy plastic sheathing is also super malleable.

I don't understand why micro friends aren't more popular, they probably shine the best in their larger sizes. They don't have the same tendency to bend abruptly as their smaller cams, solid lobe, still very light, super narrow, nice balance of stiff and soft, they're brilliant. 

Is it like a planned obsolescence thing? 

Adam R wrote:

Is it like a planned obsolescence thing? 

It’s more likely a trade off for something else. Z4s have good spring tension (highly subjective statement), narrow heads, and soft alloys give more “bite.” In short, these are high performance cams that sacrifice durability for those other features.

Leif Mahoney wrote:

It’s more likely a trade off for something else. Z4s have good spring tension (highly subjective statement), narrow heads, and soft alloys give more “bite.” In short, these are high performance cams that sacrifice durability for those other features.

I've fallen on them a few times and they seem mostly fine! I'll buy second hand non z4s in the future I think if they wear out substantially faster 

Funny, BD just posted an ad with a deformed .3 in it.

Notice how the lobe doesn’t retract all the way. That’s what’s happened to mine every time.

that guy named seb wrote:

I don't understand why micro friends aren't more popular, they probably shine the best in their larger sizes. They don't have the same tendency to bend abruptly as their smaller cams, solid lobe, still very light, super narrow, nice balance of stiff and soft, they're brilliant. 

I swear by the 0.1 and 0.2 micro friends Seb, they've never let me down and my 0.2 has seen its share of whips including one that no microcam should be expected to catch and it did. 

Miles Eastwood wrote:

I broke a 0.75 Z4 after a single lead fall. The metal deformed such that the lobes would not retract at all, making it completely unusable. A few notes on the fall:

- It was definitely not a perfect placement. It looked like the cam had torqued downwards in the crack which I think is what caused the metal to warp like it did.

- It was in Ontario limestone, which is notorious for not taking cam placements well.

- The piece didn't pop, and held a decent fall (my feet were ~5 or 6 feet above the piece, I was 170lb).

To be fair to BD, they sent me a brand new one free of charge after I sent mine in. For what its worth, I have taken plenty of falls on my other Z4s and have never had the same issue.

Is it possible to clean up the galled areas with a bit of force and a file? Looks like the deforrmed metal is causing issues with the cam lobes

Everyone made fun of me for hoarding all my X4's and refusing to buy the inferior Z4's. This doesn't surprise me one bit.

Josh Janes wrote:

Everyone made fun of me for hoarding all my X4's and refusing to buy the inferior Z4's. This doesn't surprise me one bit.

FWIW I broke an X4 the exact same way all these Z4s are breaking…

There is so little metal on the dual axle cams when the cam is overcammed/fully cammed that it deforms under a fall. The whip I took on this one was by far not the biggest I’ve taken and I didn’t even realize the cam was broken until 2 pitches later reracking gear. The axle was also bent.

I think other micro cams don’t break like this since they are single axle (WC zero) but the trade off is that the lobes flip up. I’ve had a WC zero walk back into a crack and the lobes invert.

Cameron J wrote:

FWIW I broke an X4 the exact same way all these Z4s are breaking…

FWIW, and I should have clarified this, I mainly am a believer in the two smallest size X4s (the 0.1 and 0.2 - though I also have 0.3’s). They are my workhorse small cams, and the Aliens/Totem Basics/C3s only really come out when I’m doubling up or working out particularly tricky/specific pro.

I’ve damaged standard 0.3 Camalots in the same way people are describing - the fact is these smallest double-axle cams have large areas of negative space in the lobes that allow them to deform easily.

But Z4s were a no-go from the start for me: A critical plastic part plus a mushy feel (the springs are clearly not strong enough) even when new. Combine that with exceptionally narrow cam lobes (not talking about overall head width - that is an asset, but not at the expense of contact area with the rock) and they weren’t for me.

The internal springs of the smallest X4s, like their eccentric axle, is a great design: strong springs and wide cam lobes for greater contact with the rock.

Josh Janes wrote:

The internal springs of the smallest X4’s, like the eccentric axle, is a great design: strong springs and wide cam lobes for contact with the rock.

Ya I agree, the small X4s definitely feel better than the Z4s of the same size. I would also buy X4s in .2 and .1 over the Z4s

Cameron J wrote:

Ya I agree, the small X4s definitely feel better than the Z4s of the same size. I would also buy X4s in .2 and .1 over the Z4s

head width is only down side of the x4's compared to the z4s.
I have triples of the .1 and .2 X4s, I love them dearly.