Joshua Tree vs High Sierra Grades

As the title suggests, I'm looking for insight into how Joshua Tree grades compare to High Sierra grades— mainly SEKI if that changes anything. I guess I'm asking mainly with respect to difficulty of the actual moves since elevation, approaches, etc. affect everyone differently. I haven't seen the sort of complaining about sandbagging with Sierra grading that is common with Joshua Tree; maybe it has something to do with alpine objectives filtering out that crowd.

If Norman Clyde was involved in the fa and the rating is 4th class, it's probably a sandbag.

I climb at Jtree most weekends through fall/winter/spring and the Sierras in the summer. I love Jtree and I love that it's notoriously hard, so take what I say with a grain of salt. 

I think you're at least partially right if not totally on target in saying that alpine climbing filters out some of the people who are more likely to complain that Jtree is sandbagged. Another aspect that I hear often from people is that they don't like the type of rock and more challenging protection at Jtree vs. on granite or sandstone. I frequently hear that as the excuse reason why somebody isn't comfortable leading at Jtree. 

My experience has been that if you can lead a certain grade at Jtree, you can do it in the Sierras so long as you're in shape and can handle climbing at high elevation/after a long approach/etc. Same comment applies to Tahquitz vs. Sierras. 

Jtree grades feel harder to me, mostly because it’s a certain style that doesn’t really exist elsewhere. The grainy quartz crystals and sometimes polished holds took me a while to dial in. 

SEKI has a mix of older school run outs and newer, better protected climbs, so grades vary depending on when it was put up. If you’re looking at something in particular and want more beta lmk. I’ve done most of the climbs in Sequoia below 10+. 

If you do any route in SEKI with E.C. Joe on the FA team, better buckle up for an old school conservative rating.  

I’ll say it. Joshua Tree has harder grades. Jtree is delicate and the protection can be spaced out and uninspiring until you learn to trust it. Almost all cruxes are slab or something awkward. Key word, cryptic.
High Sierra climbing is just meat and potatoes. Protection in granite inspires confidence and when you encounter slab moves of the same grade you will see the feet that you need to use. Key word, obvious.

Joshua tree is my favorite place to climb and I’ve been climbing there for years and years, Gotten used to the style and I love it, but there is no there is no doubt in my mind that the grades are still more difficult and trickier to figure out that they are anywhere in the Sierras. I’ve never been on a sierra route and then shut down because of beta, the moves are just hard or not hard like any other normal climbing place.

Thanks for the replies everyone! I've pretty much only climbed Joshua Tree for 2-3 years so I appreciate the perspective.

@Chad, I might hit you up on that soon; I have a few off the beaten path that are on my radar. Actually, are you familiar with Spring Roll, Spring Fling, or That's a Sheer Cliff on the Spring Lake wall out of Mineral King? Or any of the moderates on Tyndall?

i'm dumb. what is SEKI? 

Josh grades are more stiff than the sierras. Sometimes the crux of a High Sierra route is the route finding/decent beta but the moves are generally pretty fair for the grades.

@Sean, it's just shorthand for Sequoia and Kings Canyon. Thank you for the response

Christopher Antimie wrote:

@Chad, I might hit you up on that soon; I have a few off the beaten path that are on my radar. Actually, are you familiar with Spring Roll, Spring Fling, or That's a Sheer Cliff on the Spring Lake wall out of Mineral King? Or any of the moderates on Tyndall?

Never did Spring Lake dome so no beta there. That’s a Sheer Cliff was on my to-do list cause the dome looks so darn good and the base lake has gotta be one of the prettiest in the Sierra.

All I can add is that I did 3 Rowell FA’s from the early 70’s in the Sequoia backcountry and they weren’t too bad. A 7, an 8, and a 9+. Nothing crazy, just a few hard chimney pitches mixed in and of course some occasional loose blocks. 

+ 1 on Cherokee’s comment about E.C. Joe routes. CRS approach is gnar and his aid routes on Moro rarely get done. The routes in the Sequoia backcountry, I think, offer decent protection with so many cracks, but the loose blocks can be a bit freaky at times. Also when the pro gets tricky back there I was always glad to have off set nuts, small tri cams, micro nuts and I wanted to take offset cams or ball nutz or other odd pro cause sometimes standard cams and nuts just don’t fit at some of the cruxes.

Been up Tyndall a cpl times via Tyndall Effect and one of the 3rd cl. routes. I thought the rock on Tyndall was pretty good. 

Thank you for all the information, Chad.

Re Spring Lake, I hiked over timber gap to little five last summer and that area in the distance is so damn beautiful, I agree 100%. Honestly, I'm just hoping to be able climb there as an excuse to camp out at the lake for a little while. I'll look into getting some offset stuff onto my rack too by the time I get out there so thanks again.

If you’re interested in that area around Little 5/ Spring Lake, you might wanna try and reach out to Chris Kalman. A fine writer and climber, he was a ranger at Little 5 for some years and I heard he climbed everything out there plus random cliffs around there. Not sure if he posts here or what the hell he’s doing now. This was like 2014 I’m thinking of.

Glad to see someone psyched on Sequoia backcountry I think it’s one of the better places to climb in CA.

Rowell, I think was a wizard at chimney and wide stuff but Spring Lake dome is filled with dihedrals. Idk 

Good adventure routes are Subliminal Verses on Hamilton, Saber Ridge and of course CRS is an epic trip. 

Thanks for the tip; I'll look him up later. I think the old Vernon SEKI guidebook mentioned something about climbing topos at one of the ranger stations in Kings Canyon. Do you think anything like that is still available these days?

Also, I don't think I'm familiar with CRS unless I'm missing something obvious, but Subliminal Verses and Saber Ridge are on my radar for when I have enough experience to take on routes that size. 

I would say the crack grades are pretty similar between the two, and consistent with crack grades at other areas.

I think the face/slab grades at jtree are stiffer though, but i havent done a lot of high sierrra face climbing. Most of the routes i have done predominantly follow crack systems.

Chris…. Grades. I think that you will find the grade rating to be dependent on a few things.
How long ago? And who did it.

Some 5.9, FA in 1975, By Alan Bartlett will definitely be harder than a 5.9 done last summer At Courtright.

And I personally have an “adjustment factor” for how far you are from the road. When you’re 15 miles back it’s hard to get it up and crank hard.

“My that’s a sheer cliff” a really good climb. Finding the start is hard. Don’t try it when there’s snow on top. The snow melt got US on P6 when the water started running down the fine water cracks. Ending a fine spring day. I recommend you get a paper map, made in the 70’s, that shows the now abandoned “glacier pass trail” It goes directly up from the parking lot. Much quicker than the trail they now want you to use.

It’s best to know the history of the climbers who did the FA if you want to understand what you will be up against. If you see Herb Leger, EC Joe, Alan Bartlett, Kris Solem, Richard Leversee, Erik Ericsson or any of the 70/80’s climbers, remember that “sandbagging” was the norm and one never wanted to have thier root downrated.

So have at it- just be good with your skills, know how to retreat.

I think the J Tree grades are actually easier once we get used to the area. Most climbs are 1 pitch, a few are 2 pitches, one can usually retreat easily. The weather is great, no surprises, and camp is a short drive away. Climbing can be as casual as we want it to be.

Going up Sierra climbs requires stamina, you have to carry heavy load, climbs have long approaches and most are above 10,000 feet. Getting off route can be problematic. So in my mind, the conditions are totally different. Knowing who did the FA helps. Those mentioned above have done many sustained climbs and their ratings will be stiff for the grade.. 

There is (IMO) a progression to Sierra bigger routes that starts (In Southern California) at J Tree and Tahquitz. One can learn at those places in somewhat controlled environment. High Sierra is on another, higher level.

Slim, thanks for the input. From what I've gathered, sierra granite slab is more edges vs more friction in Joshua Tree.

Thanks for the beta, Guy. I've also got my eyes on some routes between The Watchtower and Mt. Silliman— timex route, tan in november, and funky neurosis primarily— if you or anyone else cares to share some wisdom.

Alois, thanks for your input. You make some valid points— hard approaches at elevation definitely take the wind out of my sails if I'm not in great shape. Do you think there's anything specific about the style/rock in Joshua Tree that makes things easier than high sierra climbing? The only thing that comes to mind at the moment is that Joshua Tree rock tends to have great friction. This is all spoken generally, of course.

Christopher Antimie wrote:

Thanks for the tip; I'll look him up later. I think the old Vernon SEKI guidebook mentioned something about climbing topos at one of the ranger stations in Kings Canyon. Do you think anything like that is still available these days?

Also, I don't think I'm familiar with CRS unless I'm missing something obvious, but Subliminal Verses and Saber Ridge are on my radar for when I have enough experience to take on routes that size. 

I had the old book but gave it to a friend when I left the area. I don’t recall any topos in there next to a ranger station, although Charlotte and Crabtree come to mind

CRS is Castle Rock Spire, maybe one of the toughest approaches in the Sierra if you go bottom up from the foothills. P.O., ticks, bushwhacking and tough route finding make it very difficult.

Timex route is ok, I remember a lot of vegetation in the upper pitches and the 5.9 crux was a bouldery move that felt more like 10a/b.

^ and I totally get what Alois is saying. After you get past the shredded skin and shoe rubber, plus climb a little more delicately, Jtree grades make more sense.

Christopher

I think I might have missed what I wanted to say, just a bit. J Tree has had some serious standards that were set many years ago. The climbing there is not easy by any means. The face climbing is somewhat unique at J Tree and many people (from around the world)  who first visit have great respect and fear of it. The ratings can be stiff.

But the commitment is just not there. It is easy to turn back, one can top rope, preplace pro. play around with the route, if needed. One can readily see the gear needed for given climb. The environment can be controlled. Again, for us in Southern California, J Tree is a great training ground for (ex) trad climbing in Yosemite and the High Sierra.

High Sierra routes on the other hand can have the feel of almost a mini expedition. On the long routes, you are going into several unknowns. Where the route goes, what gear to bring, can we turn back if needed. And everything needs to be done on-sight. Mistakes can be costly. And if you go to climb something new, you have to have all the issues covered. Your stamina, leading ability, how to drill (if needed), speed, just enough gear to get it done. It's totally different game and more complex IMO.

So the ratings might not be what is separating places like J Tree and the High Sierra. The commitment most likely is.  Cheers, Alois.

Well said Alois

Agreeing with Alois on this one.

To add, I find the climbing style different in Jtree versus Sierra Granite which makes Jtree feel more sandbagged to me.  JTree tends to be steeper for the grade and requires more gymnastic-style moves compared to Sierra Granite.  I find myself not having to fight the pump clock as much on the sierra granite compared to Jtree climbing (thank god those routes are shorter).   I think one can build transferable skills in Jtree but there is an adjustment period if coming to Jtree.