Just to Rant About Smith

Why can no one publish a guidebook on par with the other world class guide books out there? Has anyone else ever seen a Wolverine guide for the Red or the New? Even Ten Sleep? Come on, navigating the guide book is basically forcing everyone to be Charlie from it's always sunny. 

And the rock really isn't good. The climbing is good, generally. But the rock is pretty trash. Sorry not sorry, but the New is still the best crag in the States, put this against any other "world class crag" the two in the same driving distance and Smith wouldn't see 25% of the total traffic. Edited for universal appeal.

Light me up, please.

I agree with everything you said.  Smith also had the lamest local bro vibe I've encountered anywhere outside of Truckee.

All that said, I'm still psyched to go back.  

Well, 

I would say don’t shoot the messenger. When Alan put together the new guide book he wrote up an extensive history section, an index of climbs and a list of first ascent information. It was Falcon guidebooks who decided that those items were unnecessary in the new book much to Alan’s dismay.

 Almostrad,  “Smith also had the lamest local bro vibe I've encountered anywhere outside of Truckee.” 

 Sorry you feel that way, but it makes me question whether you were actually jiving with some local bros and gals instead of some vanlifers who were merely augered in for a while.

I would say to the both of you…

If you are not a Smith believer, it is perfectly fine to stay away, your presence will not be missed.

The place is totally lame, do not waste time coming here, go to Squamish instead.

Show me on the doll where Smith Rock hurt you.

Sam Stephenswrote:

Why can no one publish a guidebook on par with the other world class guide books out there? Has anyone else ever seen a Wolverine guide for the Red or the New? Even Ten Sleep? Come on, navigating the guide book is basically forcing everyone to be Charlie from it's always sunny. 

And the rock really isn't good. The climbing is good, generally. But the rock is pretty trash. Sorry not sorry, but the New is still the best crag in the States, put the two in the same driving distance and Smith wouldn't see 25% of the total traffic.

Light me up, please.

Feel better?

No one ever said Smith was better than the New.  Most of the 'local bros' would way rather go to the New and climb better, steeper rock on bigger holds, but choss is what we get.  Personally I've always thought that it was more historic, aesthetic, and inspiring than it was 'good' by most metrics.  The climbing, while at times satisfying, isn't exactly fun to execute.

As to the guidebook, Fossil nailed it.  Last I heard, Alan was in the process of lateraling to Kaya to free himself of Falcon's ineptitude and poor editing.

As to the vibe, I don't know what to say.  Maybe try making friendly conversation and getting to know them next time?  In the two decades I've been climbing there, 95% of the people I've interacted with have been lovely and typically embody a blend of friendly, humble, intelligent, and low-key that makes for really pleasant days at the crag. (though there are for sure outliers) I have encountered people passing through and/or new transplants who felt excluded at first. (myself included to some degree) I suspect that's mostly introverted people who are salty when they show up and don't get the red carpet rolled out for them socially right away.

Max Tepferwrote:

Feel better?

No one ever said Smith was better than the New.  Most of the 'local bros' would way rather go to the New and climb better, steeper rock on bigger holds, but choss is what we get.  Personally I've always thought that it was more historic, aesthetic, and inspiring than it was 'good' by most metrics.  The climbing, while at times satisfying, isn't exactly fun to execute.

As to the guidebook, Fossil nailed it.  Last I heard, Alan was in the process of lateraling to Kaya to free himself of Falcon's ineptitude and poor editing.

As to the vibe, I don't know what to say.  Maybe try making friendly conversation and getting to know them next time?  In the two decades I've been climbing there, 95% of the people I've interacted with have been lovely and typically embody a blend of friendly, humble, intelligent, and low-key that makes for really pleasant days at the crag. (though there are for sure outliers) I have encountered people passing through and/or new transplants who felt excluded at first. (myself included to some degree) I suspect that's mostly introverted people who are salty when they show up and don't get the red carpet rolled out for them socially right away.

Meh, I'm just salty after this weekend where I tore a dinner plate sized hold off a warm up, and spent way too much time cursing the guide book layout for being confusing and hard to follow. I have specific complaints, but fuck it, I'm not re-writing the guide book. My point is there are certainly better examples out there. Alan has undoubtedly done a fantastic and difficult job, but it sounds like Falcon sucks (we've known this for at least 10 years though).

I've had enough candid conversations with folks who rave about Smith to get the impression that "it's the best", but I think that's largely from folks that have little to no experience elsewhere. 

Will continue to climb and learn Smith, I do have an appreciation for it, it's place in history, and the climbing isn't bad. I very much appreciate the grading and bolting, and I know it takes a ton of work to keep it going, safe, and able to handle the crowds it receives consistently. Everyone I've run into has been nice and enthusiastic at the least, and at worst willing to lend a stick clip or point me in a direction. 

So to answer your question, yes I do feel better. Sometimes you just gotta say it out loud.

Sam Stephenswrote:

Meh, I'm just salty after this weekend where I tore a dinner plate sized hold off a warm up…

…So to answer your question, yes I do feel better. Sometimes you just gotta say it out loud.

Nice! Glad to hear the rant worked.  Peeping your ticks, I know the warmup in question and that thing choss (especially the first half) even by Smith standards.  And yeah, the layout is confusing, but does have a vague logic to it once you get used to it. (Even all these years later I still have a hard time opening quickly to the Red Wall pages) If you can find a used copy of the previous edition, (2008) I think it’s a better, more accurate and useable guidebook and most of the routes that are missing are on the internet.

Overall I found Smith to be a lot more fun once I stopped caring about concepts like good bad, and stars, rock quality, and accuracy of grades.  Realistically this is true for climbing in general too. 

The whole "this crag is choss" whether true or not just seems like an ego trip.

Every crag has some redeemable values and less redeemable values. Everyone has a personal choice, but their personal preference shouldn't invalidate everyone elses. To put what max said more simply, "If its fun climb it, if its not go somewhere else."

Max Tepferwrote:

As to the vibe, I don't know what to say.  Maybe try making friendly conversation and getting to know them next time?  In the two decades I've been climbing there, 95% of the people I've interacted with have been lovely and typically embody a blend of friendly, humble, intelligent, and low-key that makes for really pleasant days at the crag. (though there are for sure outliers) I have encountered people passing through and/or new transplants who felt excluded at first. (myself included to some degree) I suspect that's mostly introverted people who are salty when they show up and don't get the red carpet rolled out for them socially right away.

Fossil nailed it and I would guess they were maybe lingering Van dwellers and not truebred "locals"

I wasn't shocked, and can't expect much else going to a sport crag during peak season and trying a route in maybe the most popular zone (dihedrals).  Most of the people were super chill in passing by, but one particular large crew of "young hotshot types" were being strangely territorial and seemed like they'd never had to work a line up before (tried to tell me the order on the rig would consist of repeated burns by members of their party before I'd get to tie in, which I firmly but friendly denied).  

We had a totally different and redeeming day up in the gorge after that and while I easily take the bait to talk shit, Smith was dope and I would cruise back tomorrow.  

almostradwrote:

Smith also had the lamest local bro vibe I've encountered anywhere outside of Truckee.

Yeah, As Max and Fossil (who are you?) pointed out- this may actually be traveling van-lifers or outliers.  Moved from Portland to Bend in 2022 and have found the Central Oregon Climbing Community to be kind, inclusive, welcoming, jovial, joyful, fun, hysterical, don't take themselves seriously, care more about friendship than sending, enthusiastically participate in volunteer events, etc

my rant about smith: magic light needs permadraws to facilitate cleaning (at least one)

My rant about smith: whoever put the permas on dakine corner needs to go clean up their mess before they talk about adding more (is that pink one aluminum??)

Sam Stephenswrote:

 Come on, navigating the guide book is basically forcing everyone to be Charlie from it's always 

Maybe you’ve been huffing too much paint friend. Never had an issue with the guidebook. I don’t have the new one though. I understand the index has been left off, which is a real bummer. Snag yourself an older copy then. Paint comment still applies.

IMO smith has a lot less choss than most places. Love climbing there even though the style is tough for me. I don’t think it’s overrated at all.

I think you should just climb somewhere that you will actually appreciate. 

Ben Kleimanwrote:

My rant about smith: whoever put the permas on dakine corner needs to go clean up their mess before they talk about adding more (is that pink one aluminum??)

What's wrong with an aluminum project draw?  As long as it isn't abandoned long-term and is in good condition, that seems fine, no?  My approach to fixed draws in the park the past couple of years is to just remove them and throw them away if they're legitimately bad. (sawn, abraded, bleached, etc) It's crazy the stuff people will blindly clip out there.

To your point, I agree that way too many people abandon junk hardware at Smith.  Also the culture of perma-ing everything regardless of whether or not it's actually needed is pretty funny.  But I won't complain too much as I generally like clipping them.  But yeah, if the draws actually make the route worse (particularly if they make it less safe) it's worth having a conversation with the owner and/or removing them.

drew Awrote:

Maybe you’ve been huffing too much paint friend. Never had an issue with the guidebook. I don’t have the new one though. I understand the index has been left off, which is a real bummer. Snag yourself an older copy then. Paint comment still applies.

IMO smith has a lot less choss than most places. Love climbing there even though the style is tough for me. I don’t think it’s overrated at all.

I think you should just climb somewhere that you will actually appreciate. 

This is partially a function of traffic. Climb something with just a few ticks.

Thanks Sam for your thoughtful post.  You raise some good issues, though I'm not familiar with Charlie from It's Always Sunny, That reference flew over my head.

1. My guide was published by Falcon, and for better or worse has the look and feel of a Falcon guide.  I agree that their product is below the caliber of Wolverine Guides.  I attempted to work with Wolverine for my 2010 guide but contract issues made it impossible.  I was given the option of paying Falcon $75,000 to buy out of the contract I signed when I started work on the second edition in 2001.  

2. I was disappointed with the end result of my third edition guide.  The history, first ascent information, and index were cut without any input from me.  The layout maximized the size of the book, with  lots of wasted space, and photos for obscure areas used a full page when I intended them to be 1/4 page at most.  Chapter numbers inexplicably didn't appear at the start of each chapter, and the photo topos were touched up in a way that made them worse than what I submitted.  Many had information cropped out.  The attention to detail, overall, was not up to the level I strive for. But with that said, the quality of photos is far superior to what was in my 2010 guide (just flip through it and compare). And the 830 new routes include many all-time classics.  There are many errors that I've noticed that should have been caught in the editing process - my fault as much as Falcon's, but there are dozens of small errors in both my 1992 and 2010 books as well. Even those of us who have climbed at Smith for 50 years still sometimes mess things up. But I stand by 99% of what's in the book.  

3. Smith Rock is what it is.  it's a beautiful area with a rich history.  The climbing is varied like few other areas in the country, with tuff and basalt routes bearing no resemblance to each other.  The rock is brilliant in places and not so brilliant in others.  It's not the Red or New River Gorge, nor do I wish it was. Both are special places with magnificent climbing.  So is Smith.

4. You (or anyone else) are welcome to create your own, easy to navigate Smith guide.  Be warned that you'll end up earning about $5 per hour for the thousands of hours you put into it.  That, possibly, is an answer to your question about why no one can publish a guidebook on par with other world class areas.  Guidebooks are a labor of love, and in the end, 90% of the feedback received is negative, not positive.  That's unchanged from my 1992, 2010, and 2023 guides.  I hope to do one final, comprehensive guide to Smith in my lifetime (hopefully with Wolverine - likely in two volumes).  In the meantime, my complete guide on Kaya (with 2312 routes and counting) should be available this summer. With GPS links to every route, and no space restrictions, you'll find yourself less confused as you wander about.  In the meantime, I suggest you continue to navigate Smith using Mountain Project, where finding routes is nearly effortless.

5. Please drop me a line next time you head to Smith.  Seriously, I have no hard feelings (though it's possible you violated Guideline #1 in your post). I've received much worse - especially back in the early days of sport climbing when it seemed like every climber in the US was against what I was doing.  I'd enjoy visiting with you about how I can make a better book and improve your Smith Rock experience. And if you're so inclined, the beer at Redpoint will be on me.

FWIW, I thought both the second and third edition guidebooks were awesome. Sure, the organization can be a little confusing, but the layout of the rock itself doesn’t lend itself to easy organization (or perhaps I’m just not very organized). Regardless, I value comprehensiveness over organization; the layout of the book becomes clear as you flip through it. That is a bummer they got rid of the history and first ascents though, that made the second edition quite special. History is a big part of Smith rock, even more so when the book was written by someone who played such a big part in it.

As for the local vibes, my friend recently visited from the Bay Area, and he said “I can’t believe how nice everyone is here!” I’ve encountered nothing but positivity in my time at Smith. I’ve run into Alan a couple times, and he took the time to chat with me both times, super nice guy (I was totally star-struck and tongue-tied though)! It would be kind of like running into Royal Robins in Yosemite.

Everyone has an off experience at the crag every now and then, and if it’s a place we’re visiting with high expectations, it makes sense that would color our view of it. And everyone is entitled to their own opinions and the occasional rant. I won’t defend the rock quality at Smith, but complaining about the choss at Smith is kind of like complaining about the glassy polished rock, crowds, and pin scars in Yosemite valley. Or going to Joshua Tree and complaining that they don’t have enough really big multipitch routes. Or to the Gunks and being bummed there aren’t many splitters. They’re all legitimate gripes, yet there is a reason so many people go to those areas, and if you find yourself there, you should try to focus on the aspects that make each area positively unique. Smith Rock is majestic to even look at. Having hiked and looked at it in awe for many years, climbing it now is a blessing.

In conclusion, Smith sucks, don’t come here ;)

Alan Wattswrote:

Thanks Sam for your thoughtful post.  You raise some good issues, though I'm not familiar with Charlie from It's Always Sunny, That reference flew over my head.

1. My guide was published by Falcon, and for better or worse has the look and feel of a Falcon guide.  I agree that their product is below the caliber of Wolverine Guides.  I attempted to work with Wolverine for my 2010 guide but contract issues made it impossible.  I was given the option of paying Falcon $75,000 to buy out of the contract I signed when I started work on the second edition in 2001.  

2. I was disappointed with the end result of my third edition guide.  The history, first ascent information, and index were cut without any input from me.  The layout maximized the size of the book, with  lots of wasted space, and photos for obscure areas used a full page when I intended them to be 1/4 page at most.  Chapter numbers inexplicably didn't appear at the start of each chapter, and the photo topos were touched up in a way that made them worse than what I submitted.  Many had information cropped out.  The attention to detail, overall, was not up to the level I strive for. But with that said, the quality of photos is far superior to what was in my 2010 guide (just flip through it and compare). And the 830 new routes include many all-time classics.  There are many errors that I've noticed that should have been caught in the editing process - my fault as much as Falcon's, but there are dozens of small errors in both my 1992 and 2010 books as well. Even those of us who have climbed at Smith for 50 years still sometimes mess things up. But I stand by 99% of what's in the book.  

3. Smith Rock is what it is.  it's a beautiful area with a rich history.  The climbing is varied like few other areas in the country, with tuff and basalt routes bearing no resemblance to each other.  The rock is brilliant in places and not so brilliant in others.  It's not the Red or New River Gorge, nor do I wish it was. Both are special places with magnificent climbing.  So is Smith.

4. You (or anyone else) are welcome to create your own, easy to navigate Smith guide.  Be warned that you'll end up earning about $5 per hour for the thousands of hours you put into it.  That, possibly, is an answer to your question about why no one can publish a guidebook on par with other world class areas.  Guidebooks are a labor of love, and in the end, 90% of the feedback received is negative, not positive.  That's unchanged from my 1992, 2010, and 2023 guides.  I hope to do one final, comprehensive guide to Smith in my lifetime (hopefully with Wolverine - likely in two volumes).  In the meantime, my complete guide on Kaya (with 2312 routes and counting) should be available this summer. With GPS links to every route, and no space restrictions, you'll find yourself less confused as you wander about.  In the meantime, I suggest you continue to navigate Smith using Mountain Project, where finding routes is nearly effortless.

5. Please drop me a line next time you head to Smith.  Seriously, I have no hard feelings (though it's possible you violated Guideline #1 in your post). I've received much worse - especially back in the early days of sport climbing when it seemed like every climber in the US was against what I was doing.  I'd enjoy visiting with you about how I can make a better book and improve your Smith Rock experience. And if you're so inclined, the beer at Redpoint will be on me.

This comment belongs in a "Best of Mountain Project" thread.

Alan Wattswrote:

3. Smith Rock is what it is.  it's a beautiful area with a rich history.  The climbing is varied like few other areas in the country, with tuff and basalt routes bearing no resemblance to each other.  The rock is brilliant in places and not so brilliant in others.  It's not the Red or New River Gorge, nor do I wish it was. Both are special places with magnificent climbing.  So is Smith.

Alan,

I don’t know you at all but have spent much time with your 2010 guidebook. You’re much appreciated and so is your book. Sorry about what happened to the latest edition but in my mind it takes nothing away from what you’ve provided for all of us. So you can just add this to the good feedback you get! The people who don’t appreciate the work you put in at Smith and on the guidebook just plain suck! I, and the folks I climb with, appreciate you!

Admittedly, I don't have the latest version of the book but the Smith guidebook is one of my favorite guidebooks in existence!  I often read route descriptions for routes I don't even intend on climbing just for the clever writing.  Some of the descriptions are legitimately hilarious.  It's a shame more guidebooks don't allow for Alan's brand of humor. (maybe this belongs in the "hot takes" thread)

Leon Wrightwrote:

Admittedly, I don't have the latest version of the book but the Smith guidebook is one of my favorite guidebooks in existence!  I often read route descriptions for routes I don't even intend on climbing just for the clever writing.  Some of the descriptions are legitimately hilarious.  It's a shame more guidebooks don't allow for Alan's brand of humor. (maybe this belongs in the "hot takes" thread)

I love the humor in the book. Last year I was trying to get my bearings near the summit of Smith when I saw a baffling cluster of bolts in the middle of one of the summit spires. I laughed out loud when I saw Alan’s topo and description. (Alan, let me know if posting this little excerpt isn’t kosher and I’ll take it down).

all i know is i would kill for Smith's throwaway crag: upper and lower gorges