New and Experienced Climbers over 50 #34

Bob Gaines wrote:

Hi Ship T,

Regarding Totem Cams…that might work for body weight placements (as it will for other brands) but that’s not what you want for a reliable pro placement.

Here are some excerpts from my book Climbing Anchors on Totem cams:

“Totem’s manufacturer recommends ”It is best for the cam lobes to work at half their expansion range, i.e., when they are between 50% and 90% closed.” With any cam you use, familiarize yourself with the manufacturer's guidelines, as they can differ. One general rule applies to all cams: tighter is better than open.

 “Do not use the Totem Cam with the lobes near to fully open. Any movement in the rope can change the position of the unit, which could fail. Use a larger Totem Cam.”

Point taken. Thanks.

rgold wrote:

2. I don't believe, as Ship T suggests, that Totems are any more reliable than other brands when under-cammed. As Bob says, "tight is right."

Personally, if I can find a tighter placement for a totem cam I will definitely do so, but I remember watching a video produced by the totem manufacturer comparing the strength in KN of closed vs opened placements.  I will have to look for it.

Ship T wrote:

I remember watching a video produced by the totem manufacturer that showed at least holding body weight at a wider camming angle because of the shape of the lobes.  I will have to look for it.

Here is one video I found on the Totem YouTube channel showing that, while it is not quite as strong as a tighter "closed placement" (~11kn), at what they call an "opened placement" (~10kn) it is within the safe range on a yellow totem (9 kn printed rating).

I realize the "stability" of an opened placement when it is jostled may be a different issue than the pure kn holding power when the cam is pulled straight down. They don't address the stability when jostled of an opened placement in this video, but definitely show that the less tight opened placement on the yellow totem is almost as strong as a tight closed placement when pulled linearly.

Thanks for this background, Bob & rgold. I’m not averse to ‘new’ equipment, but have learned that when some kind of new gear comes along, it takes a bit of time to work out the kinks, or even determine its true usefulness in the real world- better to let others figure this out over their own time and money. After ~15 years, sounds like Totems have clearly passed this test.

The longer I am away from this rock the more nervous I am about it. Did I really think I could climb this (and the next 30 to 40 feet above it?).It seems at least for me confidence in climbing is very ephemeral. It comes and goes. The only cure it seems is to get back on rock and try hard.

Finding the right time can be tricky on this one. It can easily be too cold to climb. But it can also be way too hot to hike a mile in the sun.

When I lived in northern California during long winters, I got very interested in any natural substances that might help with low-grade depression and I kept seeing lithium. With some research, I discovered a place called Two Bunch Palms in Desert Hot Springs that celebrated its natural lithium springs so one day I loaded up the car and made the drive. I sat in those waters, soaking up the lithium for three or four days and I could swear I was feeling better. I also discovered that Sam Pellegrino water has a very high lithium content, and that explained why I always called it my “happy water“. So today if it’s not too cold and windy we’re going to head down the hill and soak in some nearby lithium waters.  

I finally made it to my annual physical yesterday. I was braced for a fight, but one never came. I showed him my most recent Climbing picture. He pronounced me in perfect health. Told me to cancel the upcoming stress test. Suggested I forgo the statin that he ordered “ we now routinely order this drug for everyone over 65 but you don’t need it”. I agreed to get the flu shot in a few weeks. With regards to shingles. It was his opinion that if I got shingles, a single dose of an antiviral would take care of it. So I’m giving that thought.

i’m enjoying the conversation on totems. I wonder if anyone has ever used an alien X?  When I was out experimenting with placing gear, I managed to explode a large rock with my tiny little alien.  I leaned back and the whole rock went POOF!  So glad I was not hanging from it, but it’s another reason I decided that ship has sailed

apogee wrote:

Thanks for this background, Bob & rgold. I’m not averse to ‘new’ equipment, but have learned that when some kind of new gear comes along, it takes a bit of time to work out the kinks, or even determine its true usefulness in the real world- better to let others figure this out over their own time and money. After ~15 years, sounds like Totems have clearly passed this test.

Oh yeah!  I can say from experience that when I have felt runout and on shaky ground there is no feeling like sinking the Sacred Black Totem in and knowing that you could hang a truck off of that puppy!

Might not be quite the "spiritually orgasmic" experience that M M referenced above but I'll take it!

;)

I get my warm fuzzy feelings from stoppers. A well placed stopper in good rock is as good as a bolt. You never really know with cams....  might be bomber and it might not.... 

Lori Milas wrote:

 I managed to explode a large rock with my tiny little alien.  I leaned back and the whole rock went POOF!  So glad I was not hanging from it, but it’s another reason I decided that ship has sailed

I hope you're not thinking that was some problem with the cam. It was a problem with your choice of where you placed it. 

Brandt Allen wrote:

I hope you're not thinking that was some problem with the cam. It was a problem with your choice of where you placed it. 

Absolutely. I was with Nelson that day. He was more surprised than me to see that rock shatter and me on my butt.  Good lesson though. 

Lori Milas wrote:

The longer I am away from this rock the more nervous I am about it. Did I really think I could climb this (and the next 30 to 40 feet above it?).It seems at least for me confidence in climbing is very ephemeral. It comes and goes. The only cure it seems is to get back on rock and try hard.

Finding the right time can be tricky on this one. It can easily be too cold to climb. But it can also be way too hot to hike a mile in the sun.

When I lived in northern California during long winters, I got very interested in any natural substances that might help with low-grade depression and I kept seeing lithium. With some research, I discovered a place called Two Bunch Palms in Desert Hot Springs that celebrated its natural lithium springs so one day I loaded up the car and made the drive. I sat in those waters, soaking up the lithium for three or four days and I could swear I was feeling better. I also discovered that Sam Pellegrino water has a very high lithium content, and that explained why I always called it my “happy water“. So today if it’s not too cold and windy we’re going to head down the hill and soak in some nearby lithium waters.  

I finally made it to my annual physical yesterday. I was braced for a fight, but one never came. I showed him my most recent Climbing picture. He pronounced me in perfect health. Told me to cancel the upcoming stress test. Suggested I forgo the statin that he ordered “ we now routinely order this drug for everyone over 65 but you don’t need it”. I agreed to get the flu shot in a few weeks. With regards to shingles. It was his opinion that if I got shingles, a single dose of an antiviral would take care of it. So I’m giving that thought.

i’m enjoying the conversation on totems. I wonder if anyone has ever used an alien X?  When I was out experimenting with placing gear, I managed to explode a large rock with my tiny little alien.  I leaned back and the whole rock went POOF!  So glad I was not hanging from it, but it’s another reason I decided that ship has sailed

In this particular instance, your doc is full of shit. Just ask my wife who is now legally blind in one eye from shingles.  First symptoms on Friday. Diagnosed and antivirals started Monday. Downhill from there. 2 surgeries. Just get the shots x

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

I get my warm fuzzy feelings from stoppers. A well placed stopper in good rock is as good as a bolt. You never really know with cams....  might be bomber and it might not.... 

Agree Nick.

I’m always amazed at the styles of racks that different folks lug around.

Some of these young bucks rave about thier triple cam racks and I just wonder “what are you going to do when you’re looking up pitch 2 on “spook book” ( it’s about 20 placements of #1,2 and 3 tiny stoppers) because nothing bigger than a 1/4 inch crank exists on the pitch. But oh well everyone has thier own style.
@Dragons - I’m with you about other people’s gear. I know mine, which pieces fit and I don’t like to figure on the run.

@Lori…. So what’s next? You have come far enough on grainy Josh slabs. I think if you get to touch immaculate granite or Knobby immaculate granite you will be hooked. Suicide awaits and so does Holcomb. Come and see.

It’s springtime, things are melting out, the flowers are coming.

Time for the Mountains.

Guy Keesee wrote:

Agree Nick.

I’m always amazed at the styles of racks that different folks lug around.

Some of these young bucks rave about thier triple cam racks and I just wonder “what are you going to do when you’re looking up pitch 2 on “spook book” ( it’s about 20 placements of #1,2 and 3 tiny stoppers) because nothing bigger than a 1/4 inch crank exists on the pitch. But oh well everyone has thier own style.
@Dragons - I’m with you about other people’s gear. I know mine, which pieces fit and I don’t like to figure on the run.

@Lori…. So what’s next? You have come far enough on grainy Josh slabs. I think if you get to touch immaculate granite or Knobby immaculate granite you will be hooked. Suicide awaits and so does Holcomb. Come and see.

It’s springtime, things are melting out, the flowers are coming.

Time for the Mountains.

The third pitch on Armatron, at Red Rocks, is like this. Perfect black patina plates that take amazing stoppers (and then more and more stoppers). But there's not much by way of parallel-sided stuff and so cams aren't much good.

And one cam weighs as much as three to six stoppers.

Tim Schafstall wrote:

In this particular instance, your doc is full of shit. Just ask my wife who is now legally blind in one eye from shingles.  First symptoms on Friday. Diagnosed and antivirals started Monday. Downhill from there. 2 surgeries. Just get the shots x

I cannot agree with Tim more on this one.

And Tim, I am so sorry to hear this.  

Please PM/DM me if you want.  I did a Fellowship in Cornea and might at least be able to help explain a bit, if you want.

Lori Milas wrote:

I finally made it to my annual physical yesterday. I was braced for a fight, but one never came. I showed him my most recent Climbing picture. He pronounced me in perfect health. Told me to cancel the upcoming stress test. Suggested I forgo the statin that he ordered “ we now routinely order this drug for everyone over 65 but you don’t need it”. I agreed to get the flu shot in a few weeks. With regards to shingles. It was his opinion that if I got shingles, a single dose of an antiviral would take care of it. So I’m giving that thought.

Lori, I've never heard from a doctor that statins are "routinely ordered for everyone over 65".  If my doctor told me that, I'd get a new doctor.  Same shingles, take a look at the Mayo Clinic comments.

Tim Schafstall wrote:

In this particular instance, your doc is full of shit. Just ask my wife who is now legally blind in one eye from shingles.  First symptoms on Friday. Diagnosed and antivirals started Monday. Downhill from there. 2 surgeries. Just get the shots x

My husband also has permanent vision damage from a shingles attack that was quickly diagnosed and treated. This was about 25 years ago before the new vaccine became available. 

I participated in a rescue for a kid that hit the belay ledge on a 5.11 in a spot that I always placed a #5 purple BD stopper in a bottleneck placement that is completely bomber. I have caught the fall on that piece. the kid placed  #00 gray Metolius micro cam in the same super committing spot and then went for it...  Can't fix st00pid. 

Ship T wrote:

Here is one video I found on the Totem YouTube channel showing that, while it is not quite as strong as a tighter "closed placement" (~11kn), at what they call an "opened placement" (~10kn) it is within the safe range on a yellow totem (9 kn printed rating).

I realize the "stability" of an opened placement when it is jostled may be a different issue than the pure kn holding power when the cam is pulled straight down. They don't address the stability when jostled of an opened placement in this video, but definitely show that the less tight opened placement on the yellow totem is almost as strong as a tight closed placement when pulled linearly.

All cams have approximately the same "holding power" placed closed or open; nothing special about Totem cams there. In theory, "holding power" is exactly the same---this is a critical feature of the constant camming angle of the logarithmic spiral cam lobe profile.  The problem with undercammed placements, Totem or other, is that they can be just a few movements away from disengaging if the crack widens nearby. So the point is that undercammed Totems are no better than any other undercammed model; that's what I was trying to say.

Thank you all for your input on Shingles.  I'll reverse course on this one.  Might as well get that one, too.  I'm so sorry about your wife, Tim.  

I'm trying to hold back on a rant.  When I turned 65 I discovered that Kaiser changed my thyroid prescription (lowered it), and set up all new 'health protocols' to attend to--different schedule for vaccines, less of some and more of other testing (like mamograms).  I was told that everything changes at 65, and one of the changes is the recommendation that we all need a statin as a preventative.  

I have refused. I just said that I would not be on a drug FOR LIFE if it wasn't needed.  

Actually, I LIKE my Kaiser docs much better than the Eisenhower and Sutter docs I had for decades.  I guess I'm learning to have some compassion for what modern docs/medical groups can and cannot do.

---

I'm trying to find my own middle ground between established medicine and my own instincts.  I'm trying not to be a zealot, but it's getting harder.  

So, I held my breath when I saw my doctor.  As a diabetic, as an older woman who has refused much of his 'stuff'.... I worried what he might say.  And I got a lecture... sort of. "Lori, I see people half your age who can't walk around the block."  So, sorting through what's necessary and what's not--trying not to get too worked up over all this.  .  

I have had this video of Randy Leavitt on my mind for weeks.  If you can ignore the terrible music... or skip to about minute 11... is this an ok level of exertion for an old person? (not the grade of the climb, but the level of exertion and hard work).  Seriously asking.  

  

Brad Young wrote:

The third pitch on Armatron, at Red Rocks, is like this. Perfect black patina plates that take amazing stoppers (and then more and more stoppers). But there's not much by way of parallel-sided stuff and so cams aren't much good.

And one cam weighs as much as three to six stoppers.

Reviewed my pic's from the day on that route (geez...2008).  I think I placed nothing but cams on the two "money" pitches.  Horizontals.  Quick to place and quick to clean.

That evil 00 Metolius TCU in the pic above...ha ha.

Partner has just cleaned one of my only sparse pieces on this long pitch...number 2 Camalot in a horizontal.  What a great route!

Different strokes for sure.  Concur there's nothing better than a good "keyholed" stopper placement.  But for me...I find cams pretty useful.  

As far as using someone else's gear...I much prefer my own but have never had an issue with a partner's rack.  Especially if they rack on a sling instead of their harness (another debate for sure!)...  But I'd very rarely use someone's rack besides my own on a route that I thought might push me a bit.  I do enjoy the variety of stuff folks carry but will generally pass on someone's tricams (!).  

Reminds me of a funny day a number of years ago (1990...yikes).  Was on a business trip in the Denver area and knew I'd have a half day off.  Really wanted to get something climbed in Eldo so I called around to Neptunes and Boulder Mountaineering and asked them for a few names off their bulletin board.  Got a hold of a guy who had the time (mid week, afternoon).  We traded info and I said I could bring all the gear, rope and rack, and he said not to worry about the rack, he had plenty.  Sounds good.  Wanted to do the Yellow Spur but an unknown partner and lack of time made it sound less doable.  So...Green Spur.  I picked the guy up in my rental car and off we went.  We're sizing each other up on the drive and he's saying some things that are giving me pause...like practicing leader falls by jumping off his dad's deck.  We get to the parking lot and jump out to start the hike.  He heads in the complete wrong direction for the route.  Another red flag.  Ok...  So, we get to the base of the route.  I flake the rope out and he pulls out the "rack".  Jumbled mess of strangely slung hexes and a few big nuts.  Maybe 8 pieces total.  I said, "uhh...I had a rack of gear we coulda used, which had a few cams."  He sternly replied..."oh, I don't believe in cams."  Ok then...your lead.  Up he goes.  Gets maybe 10 feet up and tries to fiddle in some gear.  Really gettin' worked.  Climbs another foot or two and manages to get something to stick but really starts whining about how there's no way the route could be the grade advertised and I hear the magic word:  "TAKE".  He hangs.  Futzes around.  Hangs some more. So I offer to lead and lower him down.  He's making all kinds of noise about the route and on and on.  I sort through and try to organize the gear.  Off we go, clean his top piece, climb a bit, clip a fixed piece or two and manage a few gear placements and hit the belay.  Good route!  Really fun.  The whole time I feel these eyes on us.  A couple of salty locals on Grandma's next to us.  I put my partner on belay and he tries to climb up.  Painfully obvious now that he has very little experience especially with this type of climbing.  Well...poor feller, the guys next to us start berating him.  Loudly.  One asked me, "hey, were'd you find that guy?  Nice climbing partner."  They're yelling at him that he has no business in the canyon and on and on.  Part of me felt bad for him...and part felt like it was deserved but maybe not delivered with such vitriol.  I finally winch him up to the belay.  He's crying.  I ask if he wants to go back down and call it a day.  "Yeah"...he sniffs through the tears.  I lowered him (really didn't want to find out if he could rappel).  Off we went and never saw him again.  Still...was a pretty fun afternoon out and I still have a good memory of the day.  Good times!  Ha ha.

Guy Keesee wrote:

@Lori…. So what’s next? You have come far enough on grainy Josh slabs. I think if you get to touch immaculate granite or Knobby immaculate granite you will be hooked. Suicide awaits and so does Holcomb. Come and see.

Lori, it is time for you to start assembling your commentaries into book form. You have a very interesting story to tell, an odyssey that touches all dimensions of human life, that finds you now wandering up and down the fascinating granite labyrinth of JT. When I read your posts I think of a friend of mine, Zofia Reych, who wrote of her journey as a climber and how the sport developed over the years.