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Why did AlpineSavvy pull the article on rethinking the water knot ?
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Original URL alpinesavvy.com/blog/rethin…, remnants of it visible here: https://web.archive.org/web/20211126104428/ alpinesavvy.com/blog/rethin… - TLDR recommends double fisherman for looping webbing. EDIT - MP doesn't dislpay archive.org URLs properly, so here is text from the article: What's a better option? The trusty double fisherman’s, typically used to tie a loop in cord, also works great in webbing. Don't plan on getting this untied, especially if it's been loaded and unloaded, and gotten wet and then dried off. It may take a bit longer to tie, but the resulting increase in security is probably worth it." (older references on the subject - user.xmission.com/~tmoyer/t… and climbaz.com/chouinard72/gra…) |
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I can't comment on why it was pulled, but "recent" testing? We've known for decades that water knots in webbing creep when loaded repeatedly. |
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Yeah, I've never understood all the pearl clutching about the water knot (overhand bend, ring bend, etc.). Just tie, dress and tighten properly, and check your damn knots! |
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The beer knot is more finicky but imho better. It |
Tuolumne Climber wrote: Perhaps some of the pearl-clutching occurred after the IFMG Exum guide Gary Falk died tragically nine years ago when a tether tied with a water knot released and he fell from the Owen-Spaulding rappel on the Grand Teton. Seems he didn't sufficiently check his damn knot. As Mike said, we've known about this issue for a long time, way before the Gary Falk tragedy. I've seen two near-releases on my own tied slings before we switched over to sewn runners. And we've known for most of that time that the double fisherman's was absolutely solid. If it is pearl-clutching to wonder why one would substitute a knot that might creep and should be monitored for an absolutely solid knot with no such problems, then show me the necklace and where to grab it. The worst application of the water knot is to rap anchors. A rap sling tied with a water knot is subject to lots of low-load cyclic loading, and this is the worst situation for producing tail creep. As a matter of common decency for our fellow climbers, I think all rap slings should be tied with a double fishermans if the slings are nylon, triple fisherman's if dyneema has been cut up for a sling. And if you are rapping off in-situ tat, grab those pearls and take a good hard look at the state of the knot that's being used. |
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I completely agree with rgold regarding using the water knot at rappel stations. However, the few tied webbing slings I have (most of mine are commercially made and sown) are tied so I can untie them if need be. Checking knots of all types is a fundamental requirement of climbing safety. If you can't or don't want to do that you shoudn't be climbing. |
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At some point in my early days in the Gunks (early 70s) we sewed the tails of the water knots in webbing to the loop part of the sling so that they wouldn’t creep. |
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@rgold Is this just an issue with cord slings? I have used the water knot on tubular slings since the 70's and never seen any slippage. I was taught to body wieght the sling to set the knot. Not always possible when on the climb, but wieght or yank and +3 inch tails. My normal kit includes 2 single over the shoulder and 1 double with water knot tube slings. I always use fisherman on any cord slings. Have never liked flat webbing, too slick and can see that creeping. |
Terry Parker wrote: Relevant videos for this discussion: |
Serge S wrote: If you want a conclusive answer to this first question, maybe DM John Godino through MP and ask. https://www.mountainproject.com/user/7075289/john-godino/community |
Terry Parker wrote: The problem is with webbing, not cord. Of course, slippage only occurs a small fraction of the time, so it is easy to not encounter it. We always bounce-tightened our water knots and, as I mentioned, I personally encountered worrisome tail slippage twice, but that's in many many years of climbing and a huge number of slings, most of which were fine.  Besides, over-the-shoulder slings might get very little loading and so not have much creep. Obviously (excluding a very small number of tragedies like Gary Falk's), the climbing world has done just fine with the water knot, and the human resistance to change is always strong (and in many cases justified). This is pretty academic for me because I stopped using knotted slings decades ago. On longer routes I always carry some cord for fabricating emergency retreat anchors. On short routes, if I have to retreat, I'll cut up my dyneema and knot it with good tails and a triple fisherman's knot. If a retreat happens in stressful conditions, you'll be cutting your knotted slings anyway, not fiddling forever trying to undo bounce-tightened water knots. As for checking your knots--sure, problem solved. I seriously doubt most people are going to check their knotted slings every time out (obviously Gary Falk didn't), but if you do that, great. But you only have to forget once, as Lynne Hill, John Long, and a bunch of other less renowned climbers have amply demonstrated over the years. |
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Appreciate the videos and the explanation. I'll experiment at home with double overhand and fisherman on my slings. If it looks too bulky will invest in the sewn slings. |
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The real question is who carries nylon tubular webbing while climbing? Then worse, leaves it to turn into trash. |
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I never subscribed to water knots. Always used fishermans on my tied slings, no slippage. The extra size of the knot was of no concern to me. |
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SAR often uses water knots when using webbing wrapped around a tree or similar anchor. Just make sure you have long tails. |
Mark Westfall wrote: I always do, although I avoid bright colors. Cord and Dyneema also turn into trash. (I can show you many samples.) Are you suggesting that we carry steel cable or chain? Or pull our ropes down from around tree trunks, eventually girdling and killing the trees? Or trying unsuccessfully to pull our ropes down from around blocks of rock? Or that we should carry bolt kits and install bolted anchors with rings for every rappel? Do you climb only routes that have bolted anchors? Nylon tubular is often the best choice for slinging rock features for protection. It sticks to rock better than cord or Dyneema, and it doesn’t abrade as easily. I carry different lengths and widths for maximizing available protection possibilities. I use water knots to close all of my tubular slings. I bounce-tighten and then check the knots every time I go out. I have also encountered lots of situations in which threading a sling or wrapping it around a trunk (or whatever) required untying and then retying the knot, which is much easier with a water knot. A water knot also uses less sling. You have to tighten it, as you would a double-fisherman or any other knot. Btw I do use the lightest Dyneema slings for my alpine draws and for extending anchors and protection. And cord can be a good choice for slinging some rock features. |
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Gray, tan, or black (depending on rock color) tied nylon webbing slings are always with me on longer routes. Very good to have for emergency bailing or backing up rap stations. |
George Bracksieck wrote: I’m also a webbing user. I’ve heard of folks moving to carrying sufficiently thick hemp for emergency anchors. It’s bulky. It’s not to be trusted if found in situ. But mostly I haven’t seen a convincing video of how to get hemp rope to fail. As pointed out above, a bad technique where you are aware of how it fails (and can check it) can be better than an improved technique with unknown failure modes. So, anyone out there have a link to how hemp fails? Thanks! (Or how double overhand or double fisherman’s in tape fails, to keep the thread more on track?) |
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I was going to suggest messaging Alpine Savvy on the site, but there doesn't appear to be an option for that. I happen to know the site developer, I will email him and see if he wants to reply here. |
Serge S wrote: Hello friends, this is John Godino, chief webgnome and helmet tester at Alpinesavvy. This is why I took down my article. (Unfortunately, for the drama-seeking audience that often populates this website, there's not much drama. =^) An instructor for a canyoneering class in the Portland area reached out to me and said that they had students coming in to their canyoneering class concerned about the security of the water knot because they said they read on my website that using it was dangerous, not recommended. etc. That certainly was not the intent of my post, but apparently it was taken that way. As you might know, people doing canyoneering tend to use a lot of water knots because 1 inch webbing is quite popular, and it often is going around trees and things that are not so common in recreational climbing. To be clear, I think the water knot is completely safe to use provided it is snugged down thoroughly, and with tails of at least 3 or 4 inches if you're tying it in 1 inch webbing. If you come across any webbing as part of an existing rappel anchor, It's good practice to treat that with an appropriate level of suspicion until it's proven innocent, and that means checking the entire sling, knots included. The double fisherman's is a slightly more secure knot to use with 1 inch webbing if you're going to leave it as part of a permanent rap anchor. Once that is loaded down, and there is no way the tails are going to ever work their way through. Downside is it's slightly harder to inspect and most people are not familiar with it. I hope that helps answer your question. If it doesn't, please get in touch! John |
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Aha! I knew it! "Big Canyoneering" leaned on John. |
