Photos of BEAUTIFUL HARDWARE pt2

Looks great Julian! Any reason you decided on the glue in double rings? I know with normal ring hangers, it’s not too bad to just replace the hanger entirely to replace the hardware. With glue ins, would you be bringing in an angle grinder and cutting them off? Or, I guess more likely for lazier folks like me, just putting a quicklink to whatever system you want and leaving the beat up rings?

Tal Mwrote:

Looks great Julian! Any reason you decided on the glue in double rings? I know with normal ring hangers, it’s not too bad to just replace the hanger entirely to replace the hardware. With glue ins, would you be bringing in an angle grinder and cutting them off? Or, I guess more likely for lazier folks like me, just putting a quicklink to whatever system you want and leaving the beat up rings?

I chose glue-in double rings primarily to prevent theft. Previously, there was a mechanical bolt with a hanger in this location, but the hanger went missing. Since this area is either part of or directly adjacent to a public walkway, the general public can easily reach over and touch the safety bolts. I’ve even seen numerous people pulling on them out of curiosity in the short time that they have been installed. Given this, I wanted an anchor system that was as tamper-proof as possible.

As for long-term durability, I don’t anticipate these rings seeing enough traffic to wear out before they start rusting—though with climbing being so new here, it’s possible the sport could grow faster than expected. 

Ideally, by the time these need replacing (50 years to 100 years from now), there will be a future version of something like Red Loctite that can turn quicklinks into permanent fixtures, eliminating the need for more invasive replacements

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Julian Jwrote:

I chose glue-in double rings primarily to prevent theft. Previously, there was a mechanical bolt with a hanger in this location, but the hanger went missing. Since this area is either part of or directly adjacent to a public walkway, the general public can easily reach over and touch the safety bolts. I’ve even seen numerous people pulling on them out of curiosity in the short time that they have been installed. Given this, I wanted an anchor system that was as tamper-proof as possible.

As for long-term durability, I don’t anticipate these rings seeing enough traffic to wear out before they start rusting—though with climbing being so new here, it’s possible the sport could grow faster than expected. 

Ideally, by the time these need replacing (50 years to 100 years from now), there will be a future version of something like Red Loctite that can turn quicklinks into permanent fixtures, eliminating the need for more invasive replacements

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Great! Thanks for the info, was considering doing the same thing on a route and had those questions for myself, so that helps

Tal Mwrote:

Great! Thanks for the info, was considering doing the same thing on a route and had those questions for myself, so that helps

Tell me more about your planned use case and how these would apply?

Julian Jwrote:

Tell me more about your planned use case and how these would apply?

Looking to prioritize absolute minimum visual impact (see my previous glue-in picture a page or two back for reference). Most of my anchors I've been able to tuck away so it hasn't been an issue, but there's not really a great place to tuck this - so going for the lightest visual anchor I can. It shouldn't see a ton of traffic - maybe a few dozen total raps/lowers a year if I'm being generous - but I don't want to do just glue ins because if the bolt gets compromised, replacing it is quite a bit of work.

My thought is actually a glue-in with a ramshorn directly into it on a top bolt (easy to replace if it gets worn, theft is not a huge concern - negatives would be that it would have relatively easy access so it definitely could get taken, and also having an open system on the top bolt and a closed system on the lower bolt feels wrong?) with a ring-glue-in as a low, backup bolt in a vertical offset style. 

Edit: Anybody have any experience with U-bolts/staples? Now that I think about it, minimum visual impact might actually be a U-bolt/ring combo if they're both camoed.

Tal Mwrote:

Looking to prioritize absolute minimum visual impact (see my previous glue-in picture a page or two back for reference). Most of my anchors I've been able to tuck away so it hasn't been an issue, but there's not really a great place to tuck this - so going for the lightest visual anchor I can. It shouldn't see a ton of traffic - maybe a few dozen total raps/lowers a year if I'm being generous - but I don't want to do just glue ins because if the bolt gets compromised, replacing it is quite a bit of work.

My thought is actually a glue-in with a ramshorn directly into it on a top bolt (easy to replace if it gets worn, theft is not a huge concern - negatives would be that it would have relatively easy access so it definitely could get taken, and also having an open system on the top bolt and a closed system on the lower bolt feels wrong?) with a ring-glue-in as a low, backup bolt in a vertical offset style. 

Edit: Anybody have any experience with U-bolts/staples? Now that I think about it, minimum visual impact might actually be a U-bolt/ring combo if they're both camoed.

I got a few ramshorns but haven’t installed them yet. From what I can tell, they have more visual impact. They’re definitely not theft-proof, quite the opposite. Because of that, I don’t plan to install them in highly visible areas where the anchors could be easily accessed by the general public or a bold teenager willing to climb up without a rope.

Tal Mwrote:

Edit: Anybody have any experience with U-bolts/staples? Now that I think about it, minimum visual impact might actually be a U-bolt/ring combo if they're both camoed.

Paging Jim Day!!! He has shared some pictures and videos of using U bolt/staple style glue ins. I’m sure you can dig them up

Tal Mwrote:

Looking to prioritize absolute minimum visual impact (see my previous glue-in picture a page or two back for reference). Most of my anchors I've been able to tuck away so it hasn't been an issue, but there's not really a great place to tuck this - so going for the lightest visual anchor I can. It shouldn't see a ton of traffic - maybe a few dozen total raps/lowers a year if I'm being generous - but I don't want to do just glue ins because if the bolt gets compromised, replacing it is quite a bit of work.

Fixe single ring hangers, but set up vertically offset (at an angle, not straight on top of each other). Yeah they twist the rope, but offset like that it's minimal, and painted ones are very hard to spot.

Or you could use 12mm glue-ins (like Raumer or Monster Crux) with nothing, if you're sure that the routes will never see significant traffic (and the base isn't fine grained dust or similar). They will take 100 years to wear significantly if there's 30 raps per year. And if they do start wearing noticeably, just add links & rings.

Another option is Crossovers with chains built in, Dave at Team Tough is just starting to make them and said he can do any number of chain links, so if you do 2 that would be really minimal visually. I have a sample with 4 links if you want me to post a photo.

Well placed FIXE glue in

Replacing this anchor:

With this (quick links were tightened):

Cory Nwrote:

Paging Jim Day!!! He has shared some pictures and videos of using U bolt/staple style glue ins. I’m sure you can dig them up

Here's the video, but I don't think it's particularly low visual impact (but it is very good theft proof!)

But if the climb is not going to see much traffic, I would just install 10mm SLBs or equivalent, and people can clean/ lower off of the bolt directly.  

Honestly I lower off a single 10mm glue in all the time, sometimes even toprope through them.  

That’s proud work Jim, they look great. Honestly, your video has me even more confident in how low visual impact the bolts themselves are - especially when camoed.

I’m thinking about having one ring, oriented horizontally, drilled at a slight upward angle so the ring hangs naturally in the middle and perpendicular with the rock - with the lower ring and bolt installed normally, creating a vertical offset style anchor. Anybody have any immediate thoughts on why this would be a bad idea?

Tal Mwrote:

That’s proud work Jim, they look great. Honestly, your video has me even more confident in how low visual impact the bolts themselves are - especially when camoed.

I’m thinking about having one ring, oriented horizontally, drilled at a slight upward angle so the ring hangs naturally in the middle and perpendicular with the rock - with the lower ring and bolt installed normally, creating a vertical offset style anchor. Anybody have any immediate thoughts on why this would be a bad idea?

Looks fine, this is basically the glue-in version of the offset Fixe single ring hangers.

Plain glue-ins with no rings would be lower visual impact, but aside from the worries about eventually wearing down, there's a good chance that well-meaning folks may add links/rings to plain glue-in bolts, which could be a lot of visual impact if the links & rings are shiny!

Tal Mwrote:

I’m thinking about having one ring, oriented horizontally, drilled at a slight upward angle so the ring hangs naturally in the middle and perpendicular with the rock - with the lower ring and bolt installed normally, creating a vertical offset style anchor. Anybody have any immediate thoughts on why this would be a bad idea?

Fancy artwork Tal! Seems like what Greg was suggesting but with u/bolts instead of the single ring hangers. Should be fine.

Using two bigger welded bolts w/o additional hardware seems like it would require a lot less drilling, and accomplish your low visual impact goal better. Being generally familiar with the rock type, any well camoed non-shiny hardware would be very hard to see unless someone was looking for it. 

Jim Daywrote:

Here's the video, but I don't think it's particularly low visual impact (but it is very good theft proof!)

But if the climb is not going to see much traffic, I would just install 10mm SLBs or equivalent, and people can clean/ lower off of the bolt directly.  

Honestly I lower off a single 10mm glue in all the time, sometimes even toprope through them.  

I couldn't help but focus on how close your hair was getting to that spinning drill!

Heliodor Jalbawrote:

I couldn't help but focus on how close your hair was getting to that spinning drill!

I've never had my hair caught in a drill or any climbing gear (thankfully) but I have had to cut epoxy out of my hair before :P

Jim Daywrote:

Here's the video, but I don't think it's particularly low visual impact (but it is very good theft proof!)

But if the climb is not going to see much traffic, I would just install 10mm SLBs or equivalent, and people can clean/ lower off of the bolt directly.  

Honestly I lower off a single 10mm glue in all the time, sometimes even toprope through them.  

I looked and can't say I saw that you (Heliador) were tied in (despite wearing a harness). My bad as an old ninny if you were.

Indulge and old man and lets hope you were. However, in addition to that, don't take shortcuts and develop bad habits (ie romping around up top not clipped in). It's the next phase as an older experienced climber that can get you killed ie thinking you know how to mitigate such risk with skill and rationalization that the risks are low....Better to double up your shizz as shizz happens for no damn reason sometimes.

Tal Mwrote:

That’s proud work Jim, they look great. Honestly, your video has me even more confident in how low visual impact the bolts themselves are - especially when camoed.

I’m thinking about having one ring, oriented horizontally, drilled at a slight upward angle so the ring hangs naturally in the middle and perpendicular with the rock - with the lower ring and bolt installed normally, creating a vertical offset style anchor. Anybody have any immediate thoughts on why this would be a bad idea?

For the lower one, I would use two 5/16 chainlinks, so that the lower link is perpendicular to the rock.  All the wear will be on the upper ring anyway 

Peter Thomaswrote:

Fancy artwork Tal! Seems like what Greg was suggesting but with u/bolts instead of the single ring hangers. Should be fine.

Using two bigger welded bolts w/o additional hardware seems like it would require a lot less drilling, and accomplish your low visual impact goal better. Being generally familiar with the rock type, any well camoed non-shiny hardware would be very hard to see unless someone was looking for it. 

Thanks Peter! Greg hit the nail on the head - I think not having hardware of any kind would cause the route to sprout new hardware from folks not realizing its intended to be lowered straight through the bolts.

Jim - the ring should orient fine in the horizontal plane which is enough if it’s below. This would match how I typically do vertical offset anchors with quicklinks (2 on top so it hangs perpindicular, one on the bottom so it’s in the horizontal plane) and I don’t have any issues with twisting, assuming the bolts are close enough laterally. I’m installing some more tomorrow so I’ll take some pics to demonstrate since I’m adding a lot of text to a picture thread

Here's a low profile anchor I placed a few years ago, it's diagonally offset while standing on a ledge, but perfectly in line for the rap, and it only has a single link on the lower bolt:

Similar situation from one of today’s new anchors - top bolt is a bit more high vis but this one is tucked away so nbd