Snagless biners for racking/alpine draws

Those spirits are the shiznit, would use them on all my cams… if all my cams were the same (and the spirits were as thin as dyon).

Current racking setup:

Totems: Dyons

C4 UL: Spirits

Z4’s: Photons

Offsets: Nanos

C3’s: trad alpha light

Dragonflys:  also trad alpha light but I keep the C3’s in diff areas of the harness, so usually not a prob.

RWPTwrote:

What about the new petzl spirit racking biners?

I think the Spirit is the best handling carabiner on the market.  I saw a video a year to two back of a Petzl rep saying that it is way more versatile than just for sport climbing, so it's not surprising to see a rack pack come out.  Pretty cool!

For rock, I used Dyons on the rope side of alpine draws for like 3 years but they ended up nose hooked, rubbed open and unclipped more than I'd like. Especially when the draw was extended, they did the most weird shit and I often looked down and was less than thrilled at what I saw. Switched to Oz on the rope side and they have been less prone to all the weird stuff, at least on rock. I've tried to nose hook them and rub them open on purpose and they just don't. I keep rope and gear side separate so I don't try to clip pitons with the Oz. Still using nano 22's on the gear side because they are light and narrow nose and I don't care as much about snaggy on that side (I'm used to them by now).

That said I LOVE the Dyons for a lot of things, like racking any cams with extendable slings, gear side of my trad quickdraws (so easy to fish out cam slings from a crack or clip a small nut wire). Great for racking anchor material and other stuff that lives on the back of your harness, again because of the long narrow snagless nose, just so easy to get on and off without looking. 

For ice climbing with gloves on, it's Dyon across the board, both sides of the sling for quickdraws and alpine draws. They really rock. 

Chris Cwrote:

I think the Spirit is the best handling carabiner on the market.  I saw a video a year to two back of a Petzl rep saying that it is way more versatile than just for sport climbing, so it's not surprising to see a rack pack come out.  Pretty cool!

Sounds like something a petzl rep would say

Spirits have been in production for 32 years.  They have been optimized for weight, but the form has been maintained for all this time.  They are now lighter than many full sized wire gates.  I have at least 10 Spirits from the original draws I bought when I started climbing in 1994, they are still some of my favorite carabiners.

Why would you buy a wiregate fabricated in China when you can get better carabiners for a lower cost?  I sold all my Neutrinos and replaced them with Nano's when they first came out and climbed with them for about 10 years.  I was pretty immediately dissapointed in the form factor, but appreciated the weight savings.  I still have close to 40 CAMP biners left, and one gets a permanently sticky gate and needs to retired almost every year.  I tried to use a nano to funk out a bolt once and it exploded in a very interesting way before I even put force into it.  I have come to the conclusion that you get what you pay for with carabiners, unless you are fooled by a gimmick, then likely you will pay more for less.

I love my spirits and getting fond of the anges.  But after an incident while ice climbing where my spirits ice up and couldn't open the gates I hear dyons are less prone to that

RWPTwrote:

I love my spirits and getting fond of the anges.  But after an incident while ice climbing where my spirits ice up and couldn't open the gates I hear dyons are less prone to that

I have a dozen draws with Dyons that I use exclusively for ice for that reason. They have been the best carabiners for ice that I've found. I've used Petzl Sprits and Djinns, wires from a bunch of different people, and then my partner got a set of Dyon draws and I was immediately hooked. 

I could see how some of the complaints about them opening in weird ways on rock may be valid, but I haven't experienced that on ice at all. 

Kevin Strickerwrote:

Spirits have been in production for 32 years.  They have been optimized for weight, but the form has been maintained for all this time.  They are now lighter than many full sized wire gates.  I have at least 10 Spirits from the original draws I bought when I started climbing in 1994, they are still some of my favorite carabiners.

Why would you buy a wiregate fabricated in China when you can get better carabiners for a lower cost?  I sold all my Neutrinos and replaced them with Nano's when they first came out and climbed with them for about 10 years.  I was pretty immediately dissapointed in the form factor, but appreciated the weight savings.  I still have close to 40 CAMP biners left, and one gets a permanently sticky gate and needs to retired almost every year.  I tried to use a nano to funk out a bolt once and it exploded in a very interesting way before I even put force into it.  I have come to the conclusion that you get what you pay for with carabiners, unless you are fooled by a gimmick, then likely you will pay more for less.

Camp being made in China is a bit icky to me too. But also it seems like Camp quality is pretty good these days - all my draws are photons and haven't had any issues, and the new nanos I bought are nice and snappy. As far as I can tell nobody's dying using Camp biners (the only broken biners I saw in the 2024 AAC journal are BD hotwires). I give props to Camp for innovating on the biner more than anyone else I see though. They seem to be the only ones trying to make something that's thin on the rack but still strong and usable. Why doesn't Petzl just make rack colored anges?

John Bwrote:

Camp being made in China is a bit icky to me too. But also it seems like Camp quality is pretty good these days - all my draws are photons and haven't had any issues, and the new nanos I bought are nice and snappy. As far as I can tell nobody's dying using Camp biners (the only broken biners I saw in the 2024 AAC journal are BD hotwires). I give props to Camp for innovating on the biner more than anyone else I see though. They seem to be the only ones trying to make something that's thin on the rack but still strong and usable. Why doesn't Petzl just make rack colored anges?

Racking anges?  Always wondered myself 

John Bwrote:

Camp being made in China is a bit icky to me too.

True

 I give props to Camp for innovating on the biner more than anyone else I see though. 

Also true

Why doesn't Petzl just make rack colored anges?

Very much THIS. Though Dyons are still a bit thinner,  the Ange L fits into pitons just a little bit easier. Would prob buy a couple rack packs if they made them.

Update: My rack packs of Dyons came in. These things are pretty sweet.

The good:

1. Nice large size, about as large as a Photon
2. Thin nose - not as thin as a Nano, but not far off
3. Snappy gate with a large opening
4. Nice ergonomics, feels natural in the hand. The curved spine and wider top make it easy to grab. I like the matte anodization (similar to DMMs) compared to the shiny stuff on nanos
5. Feels bomber. Much more confidence inspiring than the nanos

The bad:

1. One out of 14 biners has a "crunchy" gate. It works but it's distinctly worse than all the others.The shop I bought it from will exchange it for free.

2. Wiregate pins stick out from the bottom. They're not sharp though. Kind of peeved from a QC standpoint but I don't think this will ever be an issue in practice. Some are better than others - the biners with more recent manufacturing dates (mix of 2021 and 2023) seem better in this regard.

3. Inconsistent gate strength between pieces. They're all in the same ballpark, but I prefer the stiffer ones. This might even out over time, or improve with a bit of lube (the 2021 biners probably need a bit of it anyway).

I would bet that the Spirits would have exactly none of these QC issues. However, the Dyon is pretty darn sweet despite them. Since I'm a noob who has yet to use Dyons or Spirits on my rack I can't speak with any authority here, but I bet both work pretty well for racking :-). For me, I think the slight weight savings and larger size edge it out over the Spirits.

Whenever CAMP is ready to make a bunch more money off of me all they need to do is make a Nano with a snagless gate (a la dyon) at 26g. That would be the ultimate racking and alpine draw biner. I've probably made this same post like 30 times over ~10 years on MP... 

Anyway, Dyons are probably the best rope side alpine draw biner. They aren't as light as they claim, most are 35 or 36g. They have an amazingly (almost scarily) narrow nose profile which is f'n awesome. 8/10

The Petzl Anges love to rotate because the gate is a single post, they've always felt like a bit half-baked idea. 5/10

The new Petzl spirits are like 38g (actual) so that's a pretty good option but almost double a nano. 7/10 

BD Oz's are great until you need to clip something with a small hole, or a weighted sling, then they suck ass. 6/10

Edelrid Mission II are kind of cool, but solid gates and small biners aren't a great mix. They aren't as light as claimed either and have an unfortunate spine which is probably the narrowest on the market. 6/10

DMM chimeras are hard to find a good deal on and not particularly impressive in any metric, they just sorta exist for DMM fans. 5/10

Wild Country can't seem to produce anything noteworthy anymore. The latest Helium's should be #1 on this list but instead are a nothing burger due to weight + ultra premium price. 5/10 but minus 4 points for ruining a great product with an inferior update. Sad to see this company wholeheartedly embracing mediocrity. 

Cypher makes nice biners. It's about time for them to make a Nano / Dyon killer. This is probably where the next big thing will come from. 

Metolius might as well stop making carabiners, all of theirs are trash. 

I rock nanos "boltside" and Oz's, Dyons, or Photons ropeside. 

For anyone having trouble passing a Photon through a Nano just open the gate of the photon a little. 

What's with the aversion that several of you have to Made in China climbing gear?

Khoiwrote:

What's with the aversion that several of you have to Made in China climbing gear?

It's unfortunate that some companies are fine with terrible quality control.  Because of this, it leads people to equate "made in China" to "made poorly in China with minimal regards for QC by the Western company".  If China can make iPhones, they can definitely make a carabiner. 

The Dyon is the exact example of this ridiculously sloppy QC by CAMP.

John Bwrote:

The bad:

1. One out of 14 biners has a "crunchy" gate. It works but it's distinctly worse than all the others.The shop I bought it from will exchange it for free.

2. Wiregate pins stick out from the bottom. They're not sharp though. Kind of peeved from a QC standpoint but I don't think this will ever be an issue in practice. Some are better than others - the biners with more recent manufacturing dates (mix of 2021 and 2023) seem better in this regard.

3. Inconsistent gate strength between pieces. They're all in the same ballpark, but I prefer the stiffer ones. This might even out over time, or improve with a bit of lube (the 2021 biners probably need a bit of it anyway).

I would bet that the Spirits would have exactly none of these QC issues. However, the Dyon is pretty darn sweet despite them. Since I'm a noob who has yet to use Dyons or Spirits on my rack I can't speak with any authority here, but I bet both work pretty well for racking :-). For me, I think the slight weight savings and larger size edge it out over the Spirits.

Chris Cwrote:

It's unfortunate that some companies are fine with terrible quality control.  Because of this, it leads people to equate "made in China" to "made poorly in China with minimal regards for QC by the Western company".  If China can make iPhones, they can definitely make a carabiner. 

The Dyon is the exact example of this ridiculously sloppy QC by CAMP.

As someone with dozens of Dyons I do acknowledge the aforementioned minor quality control annoyances.

However, I find it weird that some climbers appear to be afraid of Made in China climbing gear given that, to date, there have been zero recalls of Made in China climbing gear, and that's with Black Diamond having most of their cams and carabiners being made there for almost a whole decade. 

In fact, it was when Black Diamond moved production back to the U.S.A. that resulted in the largest recall of climbing gear in the history of climbing - we're talking multiple product lines!

With what has actually happened we should be seeing climbers being afraid of climbing gear that's Made in the U.S.A.

I don’t necessarily have an issue with Chinese made goods, I just don’t like paying more for an inferior product. All you have to do is pick up a CAMP biner to know it’s inferior to a Petzl, WC, or DMM biner.  Actually using them for 10 years, I know they are inferior. I still have dozens of photons and nano’s, and accept their value for their cost.

What I don’t accept is that Dyons are worth more than an extra $1.00 over a Photon. As such I see a company selling gear for way more than it’s worth. That is something I do have an issue with, and as such I put my money elsewhere. 

I feel like I'm horseshoeing back to Nanos as a racking biner (I'm 100% losing my mind duing the offseason). Maybe truly is right...If you want to pick up my Dyons at a deep discount head over to my post! https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/200510586/wts-camp-dyon-double-rack-pack-unused. The above post about QC certainly isn't a resounding endorsement but being overly picky about meaningless aspects of gear is defintely one of my neuroses. 

My gym is running a 30% off sale on gear and has spirit rack packs...so I'll probably try some of those out. They feel hard to justify against nanos though, but maybe I'll find that the Made in France quality lightens my soul by an opposite but equivalent amount.

John Bwrote:

but maybe I'll find that the Made in France quality lightens my soul by an opposite but equivalent amount.

It doesnt really matter where they are made, it matters who is setting the QC standards.  And CAMP's QC bar seems to be "anything that is not dangerous is fine".  That's fine for a lot of people who are a bit more price sensitive but are fine tossing stuff periodically, so I don't think CAMP is categorically unethical for filling this market need.  Some companies will sort out factory seconds and sell them at a discount, BD is an example.  

Kevin Strickerwrote:

I don’t necessarily have an issue with Chinese crap, I just don’t like paying more for an inferior product, It’s a value proposition. All you have to do is pick up a CAMP biner to know it’s inferior to a Petzl, WC, or DMM biner.  Actually using them for 10 years, I know they are inferior. I still have dozens of photons and nano’s, and accept their value for their cost.

What I don’t accept is that Dyons are worth more than an extra $1.00 over a Photon. As such I see a company selling gear for way more than it’s worth. That is something I do have an issue with, and as such I put my money elsewhere. 

Paying $1 more for snagless is worth of for me

@scott, as much as I love the Dyon, I think the bend spine of the trad alpha (and helium) make them far superior for snapping a rope through the gate - the straight, skinny spine of the dyon feels slippery when clipping…imo

@Khoi, I would assume it’s the idea of minimizing support of a pretty clear enemy of our country. Whether we like it or not, it’s a fact, even if few of us (myself included) pony up more $ for American made products (and your point about US QC is spot on).

@Kevin, the camp biners are inferior… in certain ways. In other ways, they can outshine their competitors. Each have their own strengths. I would quibble that a dyon is worth more like $3-4 more than a photon, but it’s still def too pricey at full retail, no question.

@john, the pin sticking out is indeed an issue, though mostly just for alpines, as it does seem to grab the threads of contact slings, on occasion. Haven’t had that issue with cam slings but I def don’t like how much the pins do stick out.