New and Experienced Climbers over 50 #33

Lori Milaswrote:

The times they are a changin’

PS. As far as discussing politics on this thread, why not, as long as it remains primarily a climbing forum. I think we’ve done a good job of not being too adversarial and I have to admit that some Right-Leaning folks here have given me some other perspectives. It’s painful, but it sure is current. 

Oh man.  I don't contribute a ton here but I love this thread and the thought of it devolving into politics scares the crap out of me.

Cannot a new thread be started for politics and leave this to the climbing and non-political aspects of our lives?

All the news and politics seem to invade all aspects of my life, even though I try to avoid them (only look at BBC once a day and only social media is here and IG), and this is a breath of fresh air.

50 foot walls plus high first clips ==> mock leading for me. Getting mileage on 5.10+ to 5.11-. Getting a few moves at 5.11+/5.12-. Gassing out is a major issue for me. I’m not as pumped, but my lungs are burning towards the top. Need to clip faster.

The 5.13-(s) appear to be very hard and the one 5.13+ look like there’s a ton of body tension along with toe hooks that transition to three finger dynamic moves. Looks to be something for a 130 pound climber   

Getting used to the high non-Walltopia “traditional gym” walls. Loving the features and especially enjoying the 25 or so crack climbs that appear to be on grade. The most difficult is a 5.12+, and the first move is a 20 degree overhanging fingertip lieback.

Almost flashed a gym V4 or V5, hard to say as the grades above V3 aren’t labelled.

Mainly getting used to the setting and the sheer height of the walls that leave me gasping for air at the tops.

My new partner and I are committed to 10-15 climbs each per 2-3 hour sessions two to three times per week.

as much as I would like to know the answer to my above question perhaps it should not happen here... 

John Gillwrote:

I had forgotten that incident. Yes, my wife at the time, Dorothy, and I quickly left the premises. .22 wasn't it? Steve Cheyney's shop. Wonder if Steve is still with us?

Edit:

Lori, you asked about my role models some time back. Here was the man I most admired, for he demonstrated how far behind the climbers of the 1950s were with regard to pure strength and athleticism. Of course, ring men today have gone far beyond Azarian's feats.

Yes a .22 solid oak door and only one came inside the shopbut all of them left holes in the door. no one was hurt because the level of the alley was about 10-12 inches higher than the floor of the shop.Door is still there but i don't know if it has been repaired. Steve was living in Grand junction but I have not heard from him for a long time.

Buck Rogerswrote:

Oh man.  I don't contribute a ton here but I love this thread and the thought of it devolving into politics scares the crap out of me.

Cannot a new thread be started for politics and leave this to the climbing and non-political aspects of our lives?

All the news and politics seem to invade all aspects of my life, even though I try to avoid them (only look at BBC once a day and only social media is here and IG), and this is a breath of fresh air.

Being a bit older than others seems to temper our reactions to certain topics.

I feel as if anything goes as long as we’re civil to each other?

But climbing definitely should be the priority of this thread. History, climbing achievements, struggles and training methods for us older folks.

Fun to read about, and I equally like to understand the perspectives we all have upon life, in general. Our struggles and how we cope?

Nick venting at stupid things happening in the world…  

All good.

Buck Rogerswrote:

Oh man.  I don't contribute a ton here but I love this thread and the thought of it devolving into politics scares the crap out of me.

Cannot a new thread be started for politics and leave this to the climbing and non-political aspects of our lives?

All the news and politics seem to invade all aspects of my life, even though I try to avoid them (only look at BBC once a day and only social media is here and IG), and this is a breath of fresh air.

So, here is something tangentially related to climbing. The DOGE nerds walked into NOAA headquarters in Maryland this morning, and Musk is demanding that it be dismantled and shut down. Who needs weather forecasting, right? Especially since all private services use NOAA data. 

Frank Steinwrote:

So, here is something tangentially related to climbing. The DOGE nerds walked into NOAA headquarters in Maryland this morning, and Musk is demanding that it be dismantled and shut down. Who needs weather forecasting, right? Especially since all private services use NOAA data. 

I wonder if they'll hit NCAR next.

Carl Schneiderwrote:

I’m still doing a lot of indoor bouldering. This particular boulder in the video had me stumped at the last hold for weeks. I just could not commit. With my bad knees I don’t like falling. I also sent another problem of the same grade where I’d also shied away from the last hold. I had a spotter so felt more confident. Then once I’d sent that one I felt emboldened to try this one. As you can see, it’s quite long and pumpy.

https://youtube.com/shorts/mVxPl3nsN_0?si=xoBHcbPouiA-mLne

Good job by the setters with a nice low finish. With indoor boulder problems I'm partial to the ones that go out a long roof or overhang since you can get a lot of moves in without getting up to high.

A few minutes of consideration of what it would take to do such things as deport millions, acquire Canada/Greenland/etc, do away with NOAA, or now, take over Gaza, should make it quite clear how ridiculous these claims really are. This is Trump’s bombastic ‘negotiating’ style: make massive, overblown, unrealistic claims, then settle for something much less. How much progress was actually made on ‘the wall’ after four years of his presidency? Those massive tariffs: no longer happening (for Canada and Mexico). Etc, etc.

Such trolling serves dual purposes: rally his base of supporters, and set the hair on fire of his detractors (which also rallies his supporters). There is going to be lot more trolling like this in the next few years- don’t take the bait.

apogeewrote:

A few minutes of consideration of what it would take to do such things as deport millions, acquire Canada/Greenland/etc, do away with NOAA, or now, take over Gaza, should make it quite clear how ridiculous these claims really are. This is Trump’s bombastic ‘negotiating’ style: make massive, overblown, unrealistic claims, then settle for something much less. How much progress was actually made on ‘the wall’ after four years of his presidency? Those massive tariffs: no longer happening (for Canada and Mexico). Etc, etc.

Such trolling serves dual purposes: rally his base of supporters, and set the hair on fire of his detractors (which also rallies his supporters). There is going to be lot more trolling like this in the next few years- don’t take the bait.

There is very real damage being done right now. Besides the specifics of things like unconstitutional impoundment of funds he is setting a precedent of ignoring court orders and laws at will. Our founding fathers setup a system with separation of powers in the belief that Congress would not willingly give up it's power and their personal ambition would keep the executive in check. This is not happening and the failure to push back is a bad sign.

There is no doubt that there will be lasting effects from what this administration does in the next few years, just like most any other presidency has had on America. In particular, these first hundred days are going to be filled with such shock and awe tactics from a bloviating blowhard. I am not in any way trying to minimize what he has, or is about to do, but offering that perspective needs to be maintained, and that looking at his past actual impact as president should be somewhat foretelling as to what to expect out of this one. Inauguration Day was only two weeks ago, and there’s still four years to go…pacing and perspective, and rational, calculated resistance is going to be necessary.

apogeewrote:

A few minutes of consideration of what it would take to do such things as deport millions, acquire Canada/Greenland/etc, do away with NOAA, or now, take over Gaza, should make it quite clear how ridiculous these claims really are. This is Trump’s bombastic ‘negotiating’ style: make massive, overblown, unrealistic claims, then settle for something much less. How much progress was actually made on ‘the wall’ after four years of his presidency? Those massive tariffs: no longer happening (for Canada and Mexico). Etc, etc.

Such trolling serves dual purposes: rally his base of supporters, and set the hair on fire of his detractors (which also rallies his supporters). There is going to be lot more trolling like this in the next few years- don’t take the bait.

Apogee, while I agree with you about Trump's traditional 'negotiating' style, and that there is some of that going on now, I do think that things are fundamentally different this time around, and that this isn't all just 'troll bait'. I think that with everything that has happened ( and not happened) over the past 4 years, that he now feels that he is invincible and can get away with anything. He may actually believe that the failed assassination attempt was divine intervention. Also he is now very much relying on both extreme conservative ideologues ( implementing Project 2025) and other self-interested billionaires---and giving them free rein, with no constraints on either. Just look what damage they have done in just 2 weeks!!!!

Additionally, the words themselves have serious impacts. Do you doubt that Jihadi extremists are are already using Trumps statements about expelling the Gazans to recruit a new generation of terrorists to attack Americans? Words matter---a lot!!!!

Alan Rubinwrote:

Apogee, while I agree with you about Trump's traditional 'negotiating' style, and that there is some of that going on now, I do think that things are fundamentally different this time around, and that this isn't all just 'troll bait'. I think that with everything that has happened ( and not happened) over the past 4 years, that he now feels that he is invincible and can get away with anything. He may actually believe that the failed assassination attempt was divine intervention. Also he is now very much relying on both extreme conservative ideologues ( implementing Project 2025) and other self-interested billionaires---and giving them free rein, with no constraints on either. Just look what damage they have done in just 2 weeks!!!!

Additionally, the words themselves have serious impacts. Do you doubt that Jihadi extremists are are already using Trumps statements about expelling the Gazans to recruit a new generation of terrorist to attack Americans? Words matter---a lot!!!!

Alan I suspect the people who are so nonchalant about these events are so imbued with the idea of American exceptionalism they can't imagine a radically different future. But once the rule of law goes then so does civil rights, due process, free and fair elections and all the things we take for granted.

ETA: Evading the post limit but just thought I should note something about the tariffs that apogee seems to have missed. By announcing them Trump caused a big drop in the markets. Which was reversed when he announced they were off again. Anyone who knew that was coming could have made a lot of money.

Alan Rubinwrote:

John, I find it interesting when you say that the climbers of the '50s were "far behind...with regard to pure strength and athleticism". The '50s were before my time as a climber, but the impression I have goes even further---that things such as 'athleticism' and 'pure strength', let alone training for them,  were very much regarded as 'poor form' among the climbing establishment of the day. Climbing was considered to be a 'gentleman's sport' ( yes, almost invariably male back then) and gentlemen didn't train--especially in gyms. Since most climbers of the time were 'big mountain' oriented, running and hiking with big packs were ok, but never anything like a gym!!! There were exceptions of course, in addition to you, there were folks like Ray Northcutt in CO and Jim McCarthy in the Gunks ( plus Hans Kraus and Bonnie Prudden there too---though they were more focused on general fitness for everyone than on strength and athleticism for climbing), but the majority had a very different approach. Is this a correct image? It surely fits ( and is largely based upon) my memories of the attitudes of the '50s climbers' whom I encountered when I started in the middle of the following decade.

I think Alan is mostly right, although both Fritz and Hans told me they did one-arm pullups in their youth.  How did they train for that? (I wish I had asked them.)  Back East, I think I was something of a transitional figure in the workout department.  Of course I was channeling my experiences with Gill, I would never have thought to train gymnastically on my own.  Since I was starting at a level well below Gill's mastery, I had to invent a lot of protocols on the way.

I'm not so sure about the "gentlemen don't train" idea.  There were certainly echoes of that in the British establishment's reaction to the young working-class hardmen who revolutionized British climbing in the 1950's. There were deprecating comments about the new achievements reducing climbing to "mere gymnastics," which I think had something to do with the fact that the youngsters were climbing overhanging rock.

In the East in the early 1960's, there was already a small group of climbers who regularly went to the West Side YMCA in NYC.  (I think the West Side Y was the inspiration for the Village People's "YMCA.") Some of those climbers had at least a passing connection to gymnastics---Burt Angrist did some high bar stuff, Williams did some form of gymnastics, mostly hand-balancing, and McCarthy was a very accomplished hand-balancer.  Joe Bridges was an NCAA champion on parallel bars. But my sense is that by and large, they were exercising for amusement and general health and fitness, not thinking about the strength demands of hard climbing.  McCarthy used to do traversing laps on a wall on the castle in Central Park at 79th street, so there was an understanding that hand endurance was important, but no one was really thinking of pulling or pressing strength in relation to climbing. Indeed, when I first got to the gym, the climbers were carrying each other up flights of stairs to train for mountaineering.  That changed a bit when I showed up with my Gill-inspired workout ideas, but I don't think gym training really caught on.  Barber explicitly scorned it and I don't think Bragg, Wunsch, and Stannard paid much attention to gyms.  An exception would have been Kevin Bein, who did gymnastic ring work, rope-climbing, and an early and prophetic type of hangboard training with extra weight, using door jambs for his hangboard.  An indication of how little regard there was for climbing-specific training was Steven Ilg's 1987 book, The Outdoor Athlete, where we read that just handling the weights for an ordinary pumping iron workout was sufficient hand training for climbing. (This in spite of a cover picture of a climber.)

I used to drive around the country with a length of pipe in the trunk I could lash to trees and some latex rubber tubing for training one-arm pullups, muscle-ups, and front levers.  I don't know if I started a trend or was just one of a collection of people who independently arrived at the same ideas, but a few years later Warren Harding was complaining that Camp 4 had become an Olympic Training Village.  People like Bachar were fully into it.  

John Gillwrote:

I had forgotten that incident. Yes, my wife at the time, Dorothy, and I quickly left the premises. .22 wasn't it? Steve Cheyney's shop. Wonder if Steve is still with us?

Edit:

Lori, you asked about my role models some time back. Here was the man I most admired, for he demonstrated how far behind the climbers of the 1950s were with regard to pure strength and athleticism. Of course, ring men today have gone far beyond Azarian's feats.

John

I did not know about Azarian before you sent this video. I saw the Azarian cross only one time by an American, Abie Grossfeld, back in the late 1960s. I was just learning to get into gymnastics in high school. Once I saw that cross, i wanted to do it. I did a couple of years in gymnastics and did the normal Iron Cross. I was about 110 pounds and would do inverted butterfly curls with 40 pounds in each hand to get the strength for this type of cross. I finally did it in my last year. I worked all round but rings was my speciality.

In college, I wanted to stay in shape while getting my biochemistry degree. I did 2 years of exhabilional gymnastics called Gymkana. I did p-bars, side horse, high bar, rings, vaulting, hand balancing and chairs.

 I would do at that time multiple front levers and handstands on rings. One arm pull ups were easy when you weighed 132 to 135 pounds and no body fat. We usually trained 2.5 hours a day for 5 days a week. At that time I could do 15 to 17 handstand pressures on the p-bars. 

When I started to rock climb I had a lot of strength to pull my self upwards if I had a good hold. I had to develop the finger strength and also body technique. Due to age and injuries I have lost a lot of that.  

I found this video of Abie Grossfeld on the rings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQu8kWgHAfc

Vaulting in Gymkana is different than the normal vauling you see in the Olympics. See below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sewfrN74gg

Here is a picture of me doing an inverted cross

Azian cross. Picture only shows part of the cross. The cross over to the other side is the hard part. 

Chairs. In this photo you will see that I am on the upper right side of the photo. There was a chair under me when we started. All of the chairs are on empty coke bottles. I would lean over onto my right side and at that point I did not then need the chair that had originally been underneath me to support me any more. The coach would then walk over and kick out one of the bottles. The people would gasp and he would then pull the chair away. 

The hardest part was to make sure that you did not twist your ankle coming back down and hitting a coke bottle.

Even in my 50s, I could still do a handstand balancing on a 2 chairs.

John

I hardly ever post in this thread, mostly just add a like to a post, but these pictures above absolutely blow me away. Good on you Oldtradguy!! Those moves are truly impressive. I can’t imagine the discipline to accomplish that.
I played around on the rings when I was young until I discovered climbing. After that being indoors for any reason just didn’t cut it anymore.

John, I remember first seeing these pictures several years ago and just mind blown at such perfection. How did you ever do this? Thank you for sharing these pictures and a little history.

Today I was on a route called Black Ice. It’s about 40 feet of pristine rock. As usual when I first step up to greet an almost vertical slab it’s a total shock. I know I can’t do it and I don’t know how anyone can. But there it is and so I put one tentative toe into a divet and it sticks, so the next and the next.

I love this stuff. But I am clear that to continue I have to almost start over. I am looking forward to making an appearance at the gym twice a week to do some serious weight work and Pilates at least once a week. On top of that somehow, my whole body endurance has to improve.

It took time to get the moves all worked out, but then I just didn’t have enough energy to go one last time. I’ll be back in a few days to try to send the route.

I wish I had a little more time between when I start to flow and when I am completely spent. We broached on the subject last week, but I wasn’t paying close attention today – – to be extremely judicious with energy. To rest at every possible stop (although there aren’t any on this route). To take the easiest possible way. to save the really hard moves for when they are absolutely necessary.

Emil Briggswrote:

Good job by the setters with a nice low finish. With indoor boulder problems I'm partial to the ones that go out a long roof or overhang since you can get a lot of moves in without getting up to high.

Me too! In one area of this gym the roof is so low you have to be really careful not to touch the floor!