Statement: It’s in the business interest of the climbing Gym to set slightly soft routes with plenty of footholds. Discuss.

Just thought I would throw a rabid raccoon into the waiting room.

My answer: Yes. Pro setters should aim to create four star routes that customers love to climb and are set for different sized humans. It’s their “business.”

You might have a different answer…

I agree. It shouldn't be a hot take. Make climbing fun and accessible to all. Help people build skills and gradually increase difficulty   

Through the low 10s, sure. Above that, true it up closer to outside and make it correspondingly as hard as it should be

Charlie B wrote:

Just thought I would throw a rabid raccoon into the waiting room.

My answer: Yes. Pro setters should aim to create four star routes that customers love to climb and are set for different sized humans. It’s their “business.”

You might have a different answer…

I completely agree that setters should set easy routes with plenty of footholds. It's great if people can come in day 1 and climb a bunch of routes that just get them up the wall and moving - for a lot of new climbers the height alone is a challenge.

Soft, though? Why should it matter to a new climber if their all-jug route is 5.2 or 5.8? As long as it's easy enough to climb and have fun on, I don't see why the grade should matter at all.

Jason L wrote:

I agree. It shouldn't be a hot take. Make climbing fun and accessible to all. Help people build skills and gradually increase difficulty   

Or it leads to people getting in over their head(s) and into potentially dangerous situations when climbing outside.

Easy, yes. Soft, no. 

Independent gyms that grade hard and have a higher variety in setting than gyms that engage in corporate route setting are more fun. This does mean that there will more often be a climb that someone simply cannot do as it is dramatically harder for them due to their body being too different from that of the route setter, but this still isn't super common and it's worth it to have far more fun, engaging, varied, and challenging routes and problems. 

Accessibility absolutely does matter and quite a lot I think, but I don't think 100% of routes should be set to be climbed by 100% of people. Corporate route setting already does this, just to a lesser degree-- I am very tall, and boulder problems sometimes have low start holds. I project V5 in the gym and it isn't uncommon for a V2 start like this to be totally impossible for me. 

And that's fine. I don't want it to be different, I actually want more of that. As someone who got used to corporate route setting and then later went to some independent gyms that don't engage in the practice I found their routes and problems incredibly fun and varied. It's just better. Corporate route setting eliminates a lot of movement and puzzle possibilities and makes climbing far more dull. 

Ricky Harline wrote:

Independent gyms that grade hard and have a higher variety in setting than gyms that engage in corporate route setting are more fun. This does mean that there will more often be a climb that someone simply cannot do as it is dramatically harder for them due to their body being too different from that of the route setter, but this still isn't super common and it's worth it to have far more fun, engaging, varied, and challenging routes and problems. 

Accessibility absolutely does matter and quite a lot I think, but I don't think 100% of routes should be set to be climbed by 100% of people. Corporate route setting already does this, just to a lesser degree-- I am very tall, and boulder problems sometimes have low start holds. I project V5 in the gym and it isn't uncommon for a V2 start like this to be totally impossible for me. 

And that's fine. I don't want it to be different, I actually want more of that. As someone who got used to corporate route setting and then later went to some independent gyms that don't engage in the practice I found their routes and problems incredibly fun and varied. It's just better. Corporate route setting eliminates a lot of movement and puzzle possibilities and makes climbing far more dull. 

Wtf is “corporate” route setting?! lol 

Not Not MP Admin wrote:

Wtf is “corporate” route setting?! lol 

It's when accessibility is prioritized above all else. It's never too reachy or awkward or uncomfortable and there are usually multiple beta sequences and more holds than necessary to accommodate as many people and styles as possible. It has obvious advantages but I think the disadvantages are equally as significant. 

It's when accessibility is prioritized above all else. It's never too reachy or awkward or uncomfortable

I had no idea! Do these corporate route setters go on to become corporate developers, out there in the world?

Ricky Harline wrote:

It's when accessibility is prioritized above all else. It's never too reachy or awkward or uncomfortable and there are usually multiple beta sequences and more holds than necessary to accommodate as many people and styles as possible. It has obvious advantages but I think the disadvantages are equally as significant. 

Rock, more often than not, usually has "multiple beta sequences and more holds than are 'necessary'". Obviously it is easier to see them in a gym, but there still is figuring out which ones to use and how best to use them. In fact, being on the shorter side, I often find more ways to get through potential reach problems outside than I do on reachy gym routes.

As for grades, people will always complain--"too hard", "too soft", "too average!!!" ---inside or out, between various gyms and between different climbing areas. That's just how it is. Inside or out, you can find routes that present differing challenges and rewards---just go and enjoy whichever you prefer.

At one time I went to my local gym to get some training for climbing done. The owner, course setter of the place, would always have one root going up the longest, steepest wall in the place. I would run laps up that root - leading always. It was the absolute best training ever. The place was able to expand to 3 locations. So they actually had a “pro” setting roots at all three.
Gone was a training, workout climb. I mentioned this to the owner and pointed out the fact that I really missed the big hold, steep, pumpy, jug haul he always had set up. His reply “well you gotta toss in a few crimps”….
Haven’t been back.

Alan Rubin wrote:

Rock, more often than not, usually has "multiple beta sequences and more holds than are 'necessary'". Obviously it is easier to see them in a gym, but there still is figuring out which ones to use and how best to use them. In fact, being on the shorter side, I often find more ways to get through potential reach problems outside than I do on reachy gym routes.

In the gym, there's either a foothold or there isn't. Outside, the rock often offers intermediate options. 

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

Tell me you only climb the "easy" routes they set at the gym without telling me...

Sure, I only climb up to 11c-ish in the gym. And it's definitely true that route setters get to be more expressive from 5.11 and up. But the fact remains that the big chains put a lot of restrictions on route setters where as the small gyms let their setters unleash their full creativity. 

Climb at Touchstone at any grade and then climb at that gym in Santa Cruz at any grade (at least up to 5.12- or so, can't comment on above) and the indie gym in Santa Cruz will be more fun and varied. But yes, especially so at the lower grades. 

Ricky Harline wrote:

It's when accessibility is prioritized above all else. It's never too reachy or awkward or uncomfortable and there are usually multiple beta sequences and more holds than necessary to accommodate as many people and styles as possible. It has obvious advantages but I think the disadvantages are equally as significant. 

That hardly sounds like anything “corporate”. That also sounds like horrible setting. Setting, as a whole. should be have a variety of style routes including reachy, scrunchy, bad feet with good holds (uncomfortable for many), bad holds with good feet (awkward for many), etc. 

Additionally, many (if not, most) well set routes are done with intentional beta to force a move, or moves, and therefore don’t have multiple beta sequences. I’m not seeing any “obvious advantages“ except for those who climb infrequently and are inexperienced….and that’s not who “corporate“ route setters are prioritizing. This is assuming “corporate” gyms is referring to Movement, Earth Treks, Touchstone, etc..

Regarding your last post comparing Touchstone to Indie gyms…how exactly are you measuring “fun” and setters freedom? I know setters at every level from small mom and pop gyms to setters who set for USA competitions at the national level (stoke even overlap) and the only real difference is targeted audience and quality control. Their movement expression, so to speak, is not inhibited at larger gyms. There is more input from more people, sure, but that shouldn’t be interpreted as a leash or a negatively. Input from other people is necessary when creating a product that is not for yourself.

Lastly, often times lesser grades are seen as worse because, quite frankly, there is just less movement that can easily be done at lower grades. For example, it’s much easier to set a cool rose move on a 5.12 or V6 than a 5.10 or V2. A climber who’s limit is a V2 or 5.10 is not going to read that beta properly and consequently that climb will be seen as awkward or not fun due to the nature of the beast. Often times some of the most fun V2 and V3’s for me are viewed as awful by beginners because they are using absolutely garbage beta instead of doing something as simple and intuitive to experienced climbers such as a cross, gaston, or heel-hook.  

Glowering wrote:

It makes sense for a gym to make soft routes (people are encouraged) that are fun (no explanation needed) that wear you out quickly (so they can have more turnover and the gym isn't crowded).

As I pointed out in my initial post. Soft routes can often lead to more injuries and issues than properly graded, easy routes. If I think I am a 5.10 climber (because all the 5.10’s at my gym are super soft), but really am only capable of 5.8 moves…and go out and try a 5.10 I am going to likely end up leaving gear or finding myself in a sketch predicament whereas if I was prepared for appropriately rated routes the odds of that are far less likely.

It makes sense for a gym to make soft routes (people are encouraged) that are fun (no explanation needed) that wear you out quickly (so they can have more turnover and the gym isn't crowded).

This discussion always neglects a few key differences between indoor and outdoor (route) climbing:

1) The difficulty of outdoor routes is often increased by not knowing beta and shopping for holds. Even if a gym route is effectively identical to an outdoor route, it will be easier because you can see the location and shapes of the holds. 

2) Conditions - temp and humidity will be more of a factor outside.

3) Different rock types - A limestone cliff is a lot different than a granite spire where you're pinching quartz crystals, and unfamiliarity will make things hard.

I've been to some soft gyms but most others seem fairly comparable to outdoor grades just in terms of the demands of movement/strength. I think those other factors make the "delta" seem a lot bigger than it is.

Hey, man, if the setters at Yosemite and Joshua Tree can't even agree with the standard of the setters at Red Rocks and Ten Sleep, how do you expect "corporate setters" to get it together? 

The good gyms are smart enough to make their grading progressive:

through the setting calendar, grades get harder and harder.

then, they hold a comp. grades are scrambled into point amounts (or not graded at all). 

post-comp, grades start going up: all grades are inflated, giving competitors or post-comp flashers a feeling of accomplishment at their obviously improved abilities.

then, next reset, grades get slightly harder again... 

rinse and repeat.

Kyle Gilbert wrote:

This discussion always neglects a few key differences between indoor and outdoor (route) climbing:

1) The difficulty of outdoor routes is often increased by not knowing beta and shopping for holds. Even if a gym route is effectively identical to an outdoor route, it will be easier because you can see the location and shapes of the holds.

I think whether you’re indoors or outdoors determining the correct beta is part of the process…it doesn’t really matter if the holds are all one color or caked in chalk and have ticks on them. You’re basically talking about the likelihood of redpointing vs flash/onsight…not the actual difficulty/grade of indoor vs. outdoor. Once you determine the movement in either environment the grade should feel the same. 

3) Different rock types - A limestone cliff is a lot different than a granite spire where you're pinching quartz crystals, and unfamiliarity will make things hard.

How is this different than a new hold set or new setter  you haven’t climbed on before? I would argue there are just as many options and variety of indoor hold types 

Go Back to Super Topo wrote:

I think whether you’re indoors or outdoors determining the correct beta is part of the process…it doesn’t really matter if the holds are all one color or caked in chalk and have ticks on them. You’re basically talking about the likelihood of redpointing vs flash/onsight…not the actual difficulty/grade of indoor vs. outdoor. Once you determine the movement in either environment the grade should feel the same. 

How is this different than a new hold set or new setter  you haven’t climbed on before? I would argue there are just as many options and variety of indoor hold types 

On your first point we're sort of saying the same thing. Indoor grades are not fundamentally soft (as goes the criticism) - outdoor has more variables and is (typically) harder to figure out. Once you have a route dialed in most peoples' redpoint grades at a typical sport crag will be pretty similar inside and out. Obviously depends on the style and other factors.

Gyms should use a different grading system unique to the company.