New and Experienced Climbers over 50 #33

Alan Rubin wrote:

Lori, at the risk of coming across as condescending, I'm going to repeat something that has been said before, but I which I believe is important to say again, especially in the context of what you have been discussing. The best way, by far, to achieve the 'flow' and conservation of energy on the rock that you are seeking ( and that is necessary, for most of us, to progress in climbing), is to 'log in' very large amounts of easier climbing, well below our limits, until we are able to 'internalize' the necessary movements and, as a result, not waste unnecessary energy ( both physical and psychological) and time on the easier parts of routes.

I know this has been discussed before and you have told us that you do, in fact, do a good amount of easier climbing that you don't 'report' on here, but, given what you are saying, I have a strong suspicion that you still haven't/don't do it enough---or, maybe, with the right 'mind set'. I understand that you, not at all unreasonably, feel the ' pressure of time' and, as a result, an urgency to get on and do your dream routes while you still can. However, I strongly feel that if you can temporarily 'shelve' those goals for a time, while you concentrate on doing easier routes ( and even low-ball and easy boulder problems including traverses--make up your own), including such things as trying one-hand and no hand climbs ( or, even, just sections of climbs), you will be able to actually achieve those goals, and in a more satisfying manner, more quickly.

Again, I'm trying not to be condescending, just giving advice that I have found helpful for myself and, I know, has also been very useful for others.

Alan… this is so worth using up my third post. It’s really hard to hurt my feelings, but thank you for being so careful! I first posted on MP. and then kept on posting to learn, with gratitude, in the company here of incredible climbers.  I continue to soak up all the information I can. Most of my hands-on lessons are hard-earned, like the one yesterday.  so sometimes I just post here as a way to debrief and ask y’all what you think.

This route was a one off. I had saved this route to try again maybe in May. I have seen others totally flounder on this route. But, since the offer was there, my thought was that I could just work on the lower crack portion of the route and square that away.. But otherwise I have largely been climbing 5.8–5.9 routes for mileage and experience.  

You also echoed Randy’s advice last year… particularly regarding this route (since it was his)… to put in the mileage. You guys are so smart!    

Also, and this is what just blows my mind, every route requires something new! This 5.7 route which was the “warm-up” had crack and chimney climbing almost all the way. Let’s just say that’s not my forte.

Figuring it out… 

We don’t talk much here about the loss of self-confidence when things don’t go well. I am questioning myself today. Maybe it’s just nutso for a 71-year-old woman to be climbing at this level—or at all. (?!?)   

Edit: to Nick’s above beautiful pictures and comments: 

“Big hard climbs give you a great feeling of accomplishment but I am not sure how much fun the really are.... “    Amen!  

Lori. go have a fun 5.6 multi pitch day. It will make you feel like a rock star!

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

Big easy climbs are amazing!

Pinnacle buttress Mt washington NH 5,8 but this pitch is 5.5

Feels like 500 feet of air under your feet right there! This route has to be one of my all time faves. Part of this was the experience of doing it with my daughter but I also really appreciated the alpine setting without having the altitude kick my ass the way it does when we go to Colorado for a week (and you have to go back home just when you're getting acclimated).

John Gill wrote:

From the late 1950s. Can you guess the three enraptured adventurers? Where on Earth are they? (photo by Jim Langford)

John - everything in that picture screams late 1950's EXCEPT the red rope on the middle guy (Choiunard?) - that looks like perlon.  Did you have it then?  I don't remnber seeing it for another 10 years.

Watched part of the Giant Rock video. Pretty fun. Want to try that steep route. Looks drilled?

I'm late to the party, because I can't keep up with all of your posts, but I'll just add one thing to the discussion on training:

RGold touched on the facet of training as a means of overuse/injury prevention, but I want to hammer that point home.  Physical therapy is what you call it when when it is reactive, and cross-training is what you call it when it is proactive.  Either way, I would have had to quit climbing at least a dozen times if it weren't for the work I do to keep my body from falling apart.  

About five years into climbing it was elbow issues.  Then there were shoulder/pecs issues.  Lower back issues.  Knee issues.  Sciatica.  New and different elbow issues.  Old and recurring elbow issues.  The list goes on.  I don't want to make it sound like these were niggling issues.  Every single one of them completely stopped me in my tracks.  And were it not for a combination of targeted strengthening and stretching exercises, each one of those would have been the end of my climbing career.  And in some cases, the beginning of a debilitating slide in overall health.  

And all of that litany is only the issues I had to fix *after* they happened (and continue to do to keep them at bay).  I also do a lot of strengthening/stretching as a preventive measure, and I have little doubt that there are many other overuse/muscle imbalance issues I have *not* had, due to the non-climbing exercises I do every day.  For example, few of the people I've climbed with have escaped rotator cuff issues, but I'm convinced that the preventive exercises I do there have kept them away.  Of course I'll never know for sure, but that's okay with me.

In short, climbing, and the training specifically designed to improve climbing performance, without strengthening and stretching other muscles is a recipe for disaster.  Maybe some people can pull it off, even into old age, but not me.  And I suspect very few people can.

GO

Lori - I have no idea how Deflowered gets a 5.7 rating, much less the 5.6 in my guidebook when I first did it years ago. It took everything I could muster to get up it in the early 80's and many years later it was only slightly easier. I guess there will always be certain routes that give me an old-fashioned butt-kicking.

As a member of the over-50-but-still-working club, I’ve been searching for the perfect job in the perfect place for many years. I’ve lived in beautiful places where the job wasn’t quite right, and I’ve had great jobs where the place wasn’t ideal. (I’ve also had a couple experiences where neither the job nor the place was worth writing home about). 

I’ve been searching for a place with big, snowy mountains for climbing up and skiing down that also has access to the open ocean for paddling and surfing. A smallish town inhabited by people who make art and music and enjoy good, local food; people who are active and friendly and generous and curious and humble. Too much to ask for? Maybe, but I think I may have found it.

Anybody on here spent any time in Sitka? Had an interview there this past week and was blown away by the geography and the people I met. I’d love to hear from anyone who has spent time in Southeast: what are the pitfalls I’m not seeing? Or do you know of any places - gotta be in AK -that meet these criteria? Cheers!

Lori Milas wrote:

Guy, Tony is on his way to the gym as we speak. He goes through moods, sometimes thinking he’s making no progress and then he gets dark, sometimes real anger at the surgeon and the hospital, but other times he feels brighter and like he’s on the upswing. There are times I have to remind him that he’s been through a lot and healing takes time.

 He’s determined to have that hip surgery to get out of pain and be able to walk again.  

Lori, during my stint in the physical therapy world I learned something about progress. If Tony is like most people he will experience periods of good progress; he will see the improvement and that will fuel his motivation. But he will also experience plateaus, where progress seems to come to a halt, and that is frustrating. The plateau's are the cruxes, and getting through them, moving forward, requires that Tony and the people he is working with find ways to see and measure even the smallest bits of improvement. I have no idea what sort of work they have him doing, but an example would be being able to stand on one leg for a few seconds longer than a few days ago. That's a quantifiable metric that shows that he is improving, albeit at what seems to him like a glacial pace. Of course the goal is to keep up the hard work, preparing for the next growth phase when his body is ready. Progress following serious physical problems comes in fits and starts.

Lori said….”We don’t talk much here about the loss of self-confidence when things don’t go well. I am questioning myself today. Maybe it’s just nutso for a 71-year-old woman to be climbing at this level—or at all. (?!?)”

Yea you’re crazy - confirmed.

Heartbreaking sport for sure. When Tobin died I found that my motivation died completely. I went from a full time climber to a non-climber in a matter of weeks. I didn’t tie into a rope for 6 years, didn’t miss IT at all. That changed when I broke my arm, skiing. When they put me on the scale and the nurse said “268”. All I said was “no, your scale is broken”… That was a come to Jesus moment for me because I pictured myself a sleek 175… that’s my climbing weight.

Something started stirring inside of me, something I hadn’t felt in 6 years, the desire to get back on the rocks. I desperately needed to climb again. To reverse the rot.

Took almost 6 years of strict dieting- it wasn’t fun.

During my time away a remarkable thing happened in climbing- sport climbing was invented. I took to it like a duck to water. One could now take falls!!! Big falls that you could laugh about, I could do what I really loved about climbing- steep climbing- almost unheard of in California.

I’ve had a few surgeries now to fix broken bones, ripped muscles etc. The common theme with every one was Physical Therapy. Painful, boring and slow to recover. 

So to keep myself motivated I would try to remember that fabulous feeling you get when you send something hard. That deep down feeling of accomplishment that is lacking in almost every aspect of life. 

I know you have felt that, and I think everyone on this thread has felt that feeling.

Keep on struggling.

Good to hear Tony is motivated, if you stop being motivated you might as well go take a dirt nap.

Later all 

Colden Dark wrote: I’ve been searching for a place with big, snowy mountains for climbing up and skiing down that also has access to the open ocean for paddling and surfing. A smallish town inhabited by people who make art and music and enjoy good, local food; people who are active and friendly and generous and curious and humble. Too much to ask for? Maybe, but I think I may have found it.

Anybody on here spent any time in Sitka? Had an interview there this past week and was blown away by the geography and the people I met. I’d love to hear from anyone who has spent time in Southeast: what are the pitfalls I’m not seeing? Or do you know of any places - gotta be in AK -that meet these criteria? Cheers!

I've always wanted to visit Sitka.  Been to Tenakee Springs which is a super small but neat community.  Not sure it's a concern...but...Sitka is on one of the "ABC"s.  Big bears come with the turf (I got charged on Chichagof...no consequence as we were hunting and a quick shot over the bow was all needed to diffuse).  Rain.  Wet.  Claggy weather.  Might get old for some.  But...looks really neat!

Knew some folks who live in Auke Bay.  For the skiing and outdoor stuff.  Olympic downhiller came from there (I skied with her dad..rip).  

Know a couple of folks who lived in Dutch Harbor and one said the backcountry skiing there was really good.

Been to Yakutat a couple of times.  Probably need an airplane to access the mountains but the surfing is purported to be...really good.  Still have an Icy Waves surf shop t-shirt (likely closed by now).  Fun to see old WW2 tanks rusting on the beach.

Whittier seems "interesting".  Have always thought the access to backcountry skiing there (Shakespeare Glacier?) would be good and lift served a relatively short drive away.  Friends did a sea kayak trip from there that sounded really good.

Did a couple of trips to POW.  Some of those small towns might work but likely lack easier access to taller snowy mountains.

The Kenai might work...but...maybe too touristy and not isolated enough.  Some hidey holes there though.

Yeah, Sitka looks great.

Thanks, Brian and fossil. Those descriptions are gold. Appreciate your input. I have a cabin on the Kenai out Funny River way that I will continue to visit for the red run, but it lacks the open ocean access (without a big boat). You can find surf on Kachemak Bay down in Homer once in a while, but it’s all just short-period windswell. Yakutat looks amazing for surf but…no job opportunities for me and the town is too small. Hopeful Sitka might finally be the place.

Alan Rubin wrote:

Lori, at the risk of coming across as condescending, I'm going to repeat something that has been said before, but I which I believe is important to say again, especially in the context of what you have been discussing. The best way, by far, to achieve the 'flow' and conservation of energy on the rock that you are seeking ( and that is necessary, for most of us, to progress in climbing), is to 'log in' very large amounts of easier climbing, well below our limits, until we are able to 'internalize' the necessary movements and, as a result, not waste unnecessary energy ( both physical and psychological) and time on the easier parts of routes.

I know this has been discussed before and you have told us that you do, in fact, do a good amount of easier climbing that you don't 'report' on here, but, given what you are saying, I have a strong suspicion that you still haven't/don't do it enough---or, maybe, with the right 'mind set'. I understand that you, not at all unreasonably, feel the ' pressure of time' and, as a result, an urgency to get on and do your dream routes while you still can. However, I strongly feel that if you can temporarily 'shelve' those goals for a time, while you concentrate on doing easier routes ( and even low-ball and easy boulder problems including traverses--make up your own), including such things as trying one-hand and no hand climbs ( or, even, just sections of climbs), you will be able to actually achieve those goals, and in a more satisfying manner, more quickly.

Again, I'm trying not to be condescending, just giving advice that I have found helpful for myself and, I know, has also been very useful for others.

Agreed!

Eric Engberg wrote:

John - everything in that picture screams late 1950's EXCEPT the red rope on the middle guy (Choiunard?) - that looks like perlon.  Did you have it then?  I don't remnber seeing it for another 10 years.

Ken Weeks, Yvon, me in front of the ranger shack at Jenny Lake. I don't recall the exact date. 

Rambling:  There was another photo of John Fonda leaning out the window, aghast at our hooliganism. A wonderful guy, he died a few years later while kicking ice and limbs loose at the Jackson Lake dam. Yes, I think he was a member of that illustrious family. Robert Taylor, the popular movie star, was married to Ursula Thiess on a boat in the middle of Jackson Lake in1954. Glenn Exum, the well known and liked mountain Guide, was approached for a possible film career, but declined. He later mentioned that the biggest mistake he made as owner of the mountaineering school was not hiring Yvon as a guide. At the time he considered him too much a young hotshot rock climber from California who might not have had patience with clients. On one occasion Yvon and I were making a minor FA on the Knob in Garnet Canyon, with me leading the crux (Yvon would have done it more skillfully and quicker) and Exum, leading a group up the trail below yodeled up to us. He later told Yvon he looked like a ballerina on the rock. Yes, it was a mistake to not hire him as a guide. He was very patient and easy to get along with.

Lorie when I say go have an easy 5.6 multi pitch day I probably don't mean at JT. I suspect their 5.6 and 7 is pretty brutally sandbagged..  COR is quite pleasant as is Red Rocks..   At Devils towe we decided that the 5.6 was probably too hard for us so we went for the 5.9 ;) 

This is some sandbagged 5.7. Wonder if Alan can spot this one.  All three Cannon shots are the same climb. its 5.7 and one of the longest climbs on the cliff. 

really fun 5.8

more really fun 5.8 that many of you should know.  RG, John Gill and likly several others have done this one in the photos below. 

John, that 'guidebook' that you and Chouinard wrote for the Jenny Lake boulders was a true masterpiece---both a true guide ( probably the first bouldering one in the US) and an homage to /satire of Ortenberger's guide to the overlooking mountains---"these are big boulders, they make their own weather"!!! I know that for years a ( the ?) copy was kept at the Jenny Lake Ranger Station but made available to be looked at ( though not removed from the building)--we treated like a religious 'icon'. Hopefully it is still there or preserved in an archive or library somewhere. Do you have a copy?

Ken Weeks---I have read that while 'camping' with Chouinard in an abandoned oven ( or something) at the Tetons climbers camp, he was arrested by the FBI for being AWOL from the military. After that he seems to have disappeared from the climbing scene. Are you aware of what became of him?

Edit to add: Nick, Cannon. I haven't been up there for years and, as you well know, there have been several drastic changes to the cliff in that time---there is a correlation between those 2 facts. But C-Prize and Moby Grape, I'm guessing.

Nick— I love those pictures of yours. How is Isa?  Thank you for your thoughts on the grading here in Joshua Tree. I don’t have a lot to compare. I was thinking of Lovers Leap in Tahoe which I found surprisingly, easy and fun.

Brandt, thank you for sharing your experience of deflowered. Just thinking that it was supposed to be an easy warm-up 5.7 was disheartening. I climbed it, but I was thinking geez this is a lot of work!

I don’t mean to beat a dead horse here, but I do plan to go back to the decompensator another time or two. But I was looking at the MP pictures and descriptions today and it would’ve helped a lot if I had paid more attention. It looks like the usual way of climbing that route is off the boulder at the base (where the belayer is) in which case you avoid that whole crack section on the right.  

Pic from MP

My approach. 

That long crack to the left is Deflowered. How the heck is that a 5.7?

Deflowered...fun route...

24 Dec 2007

Lori wrote: “That long crack to the left is Deflowered. How the heck is that a 5.7?”

That’s Hoopharkz, a chimney Climb. Rated 5.4. Felt more like 5.6 to me.

Alan Rubin wrote:

John, that 'guidebook' that you and Chouinard wrote for the Jenny Lake boulders was a true masterpiece---both a true guide ( probably the first bouldering one in the US) and an homage to /satire of Ortenberger's guide to the overlooking mountains---"these are big boulders, they make their own weather"!!! I know that for years a ( the ?) copy was kept at the Jenny Lake Ranger Station but made available to be looked at ( though not removed from the building)--we treated like a religious 'icon'. Hopefully it is still there or preserved in an archive or library somewhere. Do you have a copy?

Ken Weeks---I have read that while 'camping' with Chouinard in an abandoned oven ( or something) at the Tetons climbers camp, he was arrested by the FBI for being AWOL from the military. After that he seems to have disappeared from the climbing scene. Are you aware of what became of him?

Alan, I didn't keep a copy, and I have no idea what became of the guide. 

A factoid: The first bouldering guide (1898) was probably done by the infamous Aleister Crowley: 

I was there the day Ken was taken into custody. I walked over to the sedan where they had placed him in the back seat. The window was down and I talked with Ken for maybe five minutes. The FBI agents were very polite and sat there while we spoke. After they drove off I lost touch with him for many years. This pretty much says it all.