Top Rope Solo set up

Eric Craig wrote:

Hi Ricky,  I can't find it now, but I remember seeing a post of yours claiming 1,000's of falls on a Camp Lift. I just bought one, because, I recently discovered that free soloing 5.6 at 66 is way fucking scarier than 5.9 at 39. (I imagine the 25 year layoff might have something to do with it) In fact, any V0 boulder problem taller than 10 feet is too high,  unless I AM comfortable soloing it. The body just doesn't land, even on my feet,  as softly as it used to. So tomorrow I am going out to try "TRS"ing. I will be using a Beal 10.5 unicore rope. Were I am going you start at the top, so I will anchor, rappel,  then climb up,  move the rope to a different route and repeat. I am not going to hang weight on the rope. I am expecting to have to feed the rope through the Lift for some distance. Think I have the set up figured out. 

Do you have any words of wisdom for me?

I recommend going with someone experienced the first time so they can verify that your system is safe. 

b k wrote:

I recommend going with someone experienced the first time so they can verify that your system is safe. 

A wise recommendation. Thank you. 

Eric Craig wrote:

Hi Ricky,  I can't find it now, but I remember seeing a post of yours claiming 1,000's of falls on a Camp Lift. I just bought one, because, I recently discovered that free soloing 5.6 at 66 is way fucking scarier than 5.9 at 39. (I imagine the 25 year layoff might have something to do with it) In fact, any V0 boulder problem taller than 10 feet is too high,  unless I AM comfortable soloing it. The body just doesn't land, even on my feet,  as softly as it used to. So tomorrow I am going out to try "TRS"ing. I will be using a Beal 10.5 unicore rope. Were I am going you start at the top, so I will anchor, rappel,  then climb up,  move the rope to a different route and repeat. I am not going to hang weight on the rope. I am expecting to have to feed the rope through the Lift for some distance. Think I have the set up figured out. 

Do you have any words of wisdom for me?

Lol yeah TRSing was my primary way of climbing for the better part of two years once. 

So what's your backup method? Microtrax, jumar, knots? How will you be holding it upright? 

Tie a water bottle or a hiking shoe or two to the rope at the bottom and it will self feed beautifully from the get go. Or even use the rest of the rope at the bottom as the weight. Is there a reason you'd prefer not to do this? You will have the manually self feed for 20' or so otherwise. 

Thanks for getting back. There are reasons I addressed this issue to you. Although we have never met, I have read your posts for a year and I have confidence in getting good answers from you, for one.

Initially I am not worrying about a backup. I understand the big picture. The first climb I am doing I soloed last week(ropeless). If I end up feeling the need, I can add knots, or put a prussik on. I was just going to use a chest sling to hold it up. I am expecting to have to do some figuring or experimenting on how to position stuff best to facilitate feeding. Suggestions?

Come to think of it I have a ratty old pack, I could use that with just a bit in it for weight, to hang at the bottom. But I was thinking nothing on the rope, these climbs are easy and I want to be able to pull the rope up without a big fuss and move it to the next line. I guess it will be a climb by climb evaluation as to what the best thing to do is. 

I am not exactly a newbie to roped solo. TRS cragging in the 21st century, yes that's new. I have experience using a rope to safeguard just the crux sections on alpine routes that I soloed in the 1980's. 

I am also interested in hearing what other  things you have found the Lift useful for?, since I bought this thing. 

Eric Craig wrote:

Initially I am not worrying about a backup. I understand the big picture. The first climb I am doing I soloed last week(ropeless). If I end up feeling the need, I can add knots, or put a prussik on.

Yeah fair enough. I worry about beginners who don't understand risk well using only one device but that certainly isn't you. 

 I was just going to use a chest sling to hold it up. I am expecting to have to do some figuring or experimenting on how to position stuff best to facilitate feeding. Suggestions?

Two single length runners work well, or a double length crossed over one's back works quite well also. With the lift if you have a full size carabiner you can just clip it through the Lift to hold it up. This works with some medium sized biners but not others and not at all with mini carabiners. 

Come to think of it I have a ratty old pack, I could use that with just a bit in it for weight, to hang at the bottom. But I was thinking nothing on the rope, these climbs are easy and I want to be able to pull the rope up without a big fuss and move it to the next line. I guess it will be a climb by climb evaluation as to what the best thing to do is. 

If you put a very light weight like a hiking shoe or one water bottle you can still easily pull rope through if you want, but as it's self feeding it isn't super necessary. An old pack or just the rest of the rope coiled up at the bottom and clipped to itself would work well also. 

I am not exactly a newbie to roped solo. TRS cragging in the 21st century, yes that's new. I have experience using a rope to safeguard just the crux sections on alpine routes that I soloed in the 1980's. 

Sounds rad! 

I am also interested in hearing what other  things you have found the Lift useful for?, since I bought this thing. 

Lol I have only used it for TRS, but I've certainly gotten my money's worth out of that thing. Other PCDs are more versatile, I'm not sure what else I'd use the lift for. 

Thanks Ricky. I am not sure I am going to make it today, but I will report back if I do.

My geriatric Border Collie has not had a good start to the day. 

I read through this thread a year ago when I started TRS and ended up doing Rollnlock with an elastic cord looped around the biner, and a microtrax below. Recently I bought a taz lov3 hoping to make the transitions to rappelling quicker, but I have to say it’s a bit of a pain in the ass to use based on my first short session with it.

The device sits pretty far away from your body due to its size, and because of the way the device pivots, you shouldn’t suspend it upwards else it might interfere with the braking action. Because it’s so heavy, I was constantly listening to it dragging against the microtrax I had on below it. I eventually went just taz + backup knot, but because the device can be opened without unclipping it from your harness, that felt way sketchier than doing the same with a grigri. The lowering handle also is very sudden, all or nothing lowering. It’s much harder to control than a grigri I feel.

Has anyone who uses a taz lov3 for TRS felt the same way, and did you eventually get used to it/adjust your setup to suit the device?

Connor Hale wrote:

I read through this thread a year ago when I started TRS and ended up doing Rollnlock with an elastic cord looped around the biner, and a microtrax below. Recently I bought a taz lov3 hoping to make the transitions to rappelling quicker, but I have to say it’s a bit of a pain in the ass to use based on my first short session with it.

The device sits pretty far away from your body due to its size, and because of the way the device pivots, you shouldn’t suspend it upwards else it might interfere with the braking action. Because it’s so heavy, I was constantly listening to it dragging against the microtrax I had on below it. I eventually went just taz + backup knot, but because the device can be opened without unclipping it from your harness, that felt way sketchier than doing the same with a grigri. The lowering handle also is very sudden, all or nothing lowering. It’s much harder to control than a grigri I feel.

Has anyone who uses a taz lov3 for TRS felt the same way, and did you eventually get used to it/adjust your setup to suit the device?

Hold it upright. It's fine, that's how everyone uses it. 

Ricky Harline wrote:

Hold it upright. It's fine, that's how everyone uses it. 

At the biner, not on the device, right? As pictured below. I did attempt to hold it upright but my previous elastic was not up to the task, or so I thought. I think the main issue was the device was constantly crossloading. With the same elastic and an anti crossload biner it does seem better.

Connor Hale wrote:

At the biner, not on the device, right? As pictured below. I did attempt to hold it upright but my previous elastic was not up to the task, or so I thought. I think the main issue was the device was constantly crossloading. With the same elastic and an anti crossload biner it does seem better.

There's a little hole up there, put some skinny cord through it. 

With a device as big and heavy as the Taz, a LRS like Avant chest harness is probably preferable to small diameter cord...or, something rigged up with slings like Ricky suggested up thread. 

If you really want to pimp your LOV setup, a swivel makes it very sweet.  It allows for all direction movement, and you can just turn it around to LRS.  The next step is to use a soft shackle instead of the quick link, which I've moved on to.

TRS mode.  I use a substantial chest harness, which I made.

Rappel mode, detached from the chest harness. MT is pinned back, obviously.

In this LRS pic you can see that I have an El Mudo also on the harness--I was testing them side-by-side.  The Taz won.  I've stopped using the pulley as well, as I find the 9.4 rope feeds well without it.

Evan, what, if anything, are you doing to back up the Taz for LRS?

evan freeman wrote:

The next step is to use a soft shackle instead of the quick link, which I've moved on to.

The following idea applies to the Lov3 only. Consider using only soft connectors, two soft shackles, for safety. No quick link, no swivel. It's how high liners join their lines. Provided they are not too short, they rotate easily for LRS rappels due to how supple they are.

Noel Z wrote:

The following idea applies to the Lov3 only. Consider using only soft connectors, two soft shackles, for safety. 

You mean just run the shackles (doubled up is what I assume you mean) through the LOV3's lone hole?  Hmm.  That's a very interesting idea, and would save the weight of the swivel...  I'll make another shackle & try it out.  The LOV3's hole is nicely rounded, but I can imagine people being concerned about cutting the dyneema, or the LOV3 opening unexpectedly without a rigid piece through it to prevent that, but I'll try to get it to release.  I've also seen where people have added a pin to the LOV3 to prevent opening unintentionally.

Sean, I use a MT to manage cache with slip knots behind it (or sometimes between it and the Taz).  I tie the knots either spaced out (rarely) or periodically at stances.  LRS is a much more complicated thing than TRS, so we should probably not let this thread drift into that too much.

IMO, swivels are an expensive, heavy, and unecesesary accessory, that only complicates the system and increases the number of potential points of failure.

Second the soft shackle. 

I admit I know next to nothing about soft shackles, but they seem so loose when they are not loaded. Is that not the case?

evan freeman wrote:

You mean just run the shackles (doubled up is what I assume you mean) through the LOV3's lone hole?  Hmm.  That's a very interesting idea, and would save the weight of the swivel...  I'll make another shackle & try it out.  

I use two separate soft shackles, just in case. Although I've never had a soft schackle come even close to coming undone in any application, I'd never use one on its own. I have seen that rubber o-rings can be used to make the shackle even safer, I may add one.
I never really found the perfect carabiner for LRS. No matter what carabiner I tried, there was always some unpredictable behaviour. 

evan freeman wrote:
The LOV3's hole is nicely rounded, but I can imagine people being concerned about cutting the dyneema, or the LOV3 opening unexpectedly without a rigid piece through it to prevent that, but I'll try to get it to release.  I've also seen where people have added a pin to the LOV3 to prevent opening unintentionally.

My Lov3 has well rounded edges and I'm personally not worried about cutting. A chafe sleeve could be added, some tubular webbing? I have a Lov2 and Lov3. I can see how a Pin on the Lov3 chould add some peace of mind regarding accidental opening. I've need seen that modification. The Lov2 is safer regarding opening, but it's slower to detach from the rope for it.

Edit: There's a soft shackle from John Tucker which adds safety. I haven't make one yet, but it looks super plausible enough.

https://www.hownot2.info/post/self-closing-soft-shackles