Top Rope Solo set up

Will Alpine wrote:

Here's my personal favorite TRS setup. 

DIY on Instructables

I worry about the lack of heterogeneity that petzl recommends for TRS. Did you shave off the keeper on one of your micros to forever engage the cam?

I agree heterogeneity is theoretically best practice; however, i love having 2 micros on my party at all times, particularly for simulclimb situations. 

I haven't shaved off the cam tab on my MT yet; some suggest that having the disengage is useful for hauling loads on bigwalls (LINK).

Both are great points, though. I'll definitely consider adding a callout in the Instructable for these situations!

Will Alpine wrote:

I agree heterogeneity is theoretically best practice; however, i love having 2 micros on my party at all times, particularly for simulclimb situations. 

I haven't shaved off the cam tab on my MT yet; some suggest that having the disengage is useful for hauling loads on bigwalls (LINK).

Both are great points, though. I'll definitely consider adding a callout in the Instructable for these situations!

The one with the shaved off cam would be dedicated solely to TR solo, so you would need 3 micros if you wanted two just for dedicated pulleys.

Pat Marrinan wrote:

Hmm. I have had multiple people tell me you want to avoid weighting the micro trax for that reason, and one friend even declined using my rope as a fixed line for taking photos (with a micro) when he realized it was a brand new dry treated rope, because he was going to feel so bad about it. Is this all incorrect?

Again toothed devices don’t tear up your rope if you don’t weigh as much as three elephants. On the contrary, ribbed devices tear your rope up at less weight and don’t feed as smooth

A cam is pinching a rope on the toothed devices. The teeth just help it to catch faster and not slip. Could this is the most tired myth in all the land? Surely it must be for the TR solo Provence...

My petzle rescusender is absolutely capitol 

Pat Marrinan wrote: Looking to get a TRS setup after finally trying my buddies recently. Planning on a micro traction for backup/secondary piece. He used a CAMP Lift for primary. It seems like the Lift might be discontinued(?). The Solo 2 seems like a comparable option, but it does have teeth, although they seem less aggressive than on the micro trax. Is the solo a good option and won't eat my rope, or should I hold out for a Lift? Or look for something else all together??

The Solo 2 is a solid option with less aggressive teeth than the Micro Trax, so it shouldn't shred your rope with proper use. If you can’t find a CAMP Lift (it does seem discontinued), the Solo 2 is a great alternative. Just ensure compatibility with your rope and usage style!

It's not ideal to talk about agressive teeth. With ascenders, like the Micro Traxion, the rope's path is striaght through the device. Having no bends provides very low friction. We want that in one direction. In the other direction, during loading, the teeth must be there to compensate for no bends. They proving the initial friction so that the cam can take over and hold the rope. The cam ultimately holds the rope, not the teeth. Maybe this analogy is stupid, but it's a bit like belay gloves. The glove stops the initial slipping, but the cam takes over holding the fall.
The teeth's number, size and orientation play a major design role. In one direction they glide over the rope, in the other they bury in just enough to pass main holding task over to the cam. It's an interplay between friction, damage reduction and guaranteed locking.
With TRS the trick is to make falls as similar as possible to the sudden loading of an ascender. A fall that is not a fall. Keep slack out of the system. Arguably this makes how you keep your device raised and how you attach to it more important than the aggressive appearance of a device's teeth.   

@Pat Marrinan: I don't think the Camp Solo 2 is a suitable TRS device because of how the attachment point is one sided.

The cam probably isn't doing the majority of the holding, teeth ensure uniform loading of the rope and load distribution through the sheath. The cam pinching the rope damages it more so than the teeth, this can be seen in the Hownot2 video where the tibloc desheathed the rope at high loads than the microtrax. 

Of course not an apples to apples comparison but the internal ramp of the tibloc is obviously going to impart significantly less force on the rope than the cam of a microtrax, we have seen untoothed cammed ascendors do more damage to ropes at lower loads in other tests as well adding validity to this. 

https://www.amazon.com/Climbing-Ascender-Protection-Mountaineering-Expedition/dp/B081N5XQC9?source=ps-sl-shoppingads-lpcontext&ref_=fplfs&smid=A22Y5WIF92NVTH&gQT=1&th=1

looks sketchy but it is almost as good as the camp lift Definitely use a back up with it but a cheap add-on to the kit

tr solo some 11s and 12s did plenty of falling on it with a micro trax as a backup

ethan parra wrote:

https://www.amazon.com/Climbing-Ascender-Protection-Mountaineering-Expedition/dp/B081N5XQC9?source=ps-sl-shoppingads-lpcontext&ref_=fplfs&smid=A22Y5WIF92NVTH&gQT=1&th=1

looks sketchy but it is almost as good as the camp lift Definitely use a back up with it but a cheap add-on to the kit

I really wouldn't trust these Lift knockoffs. The Lift and uAscend were knockoffs themselves, of the Ushba Basic, and were known to be inferior in build quality, with the accidents to prove it. 

When you're talking a knockoff of a knockoff, pretty sure that's the definition of sketchy.

You can occasionally find a Basic on eBay (as I was informed when I first mentioned the Ushba in this thread back in August.) That'd probably be your best bet. Bonus is that it's still the best TRS device for ice climbing.

ethan parra wrote:

https://www.amazon.com/Climbing-Ascender-Protection-Mountaineering-Expedition/dp/B081N5XQC9?source=ps-sl-shoppingads-lpcontext&ref_=fplfs&smid=A22Y5WIF92NVTH&gQT=1&th=1

looks sketchy but it is almost as good as the camp lift Definitely use a back up with it but a cheap add-on to the kit

If you're going to trust a sketchy knock off device why not a sketchy knock off rope or harness. 

There are few single points of failure in climbing that we need to know are bomber, when top rope soloing your device is one of them. 

Mike Larson wrote:

I really wouldn't trust these Lift knockoffs. The Lift and uAscend were knockoffs themselves, of the Ushba Basic, and were known to be inferior in build quality, with the accidents to prove it. 

When you're talking a knockoff of a knockoff, pretty sure that's the definition of sketchy.

You can occasionally find a Basic on eBay (as I was informed when I first mentioned the Ushba in this thread back in August.) That'd probably be your best bet. Bonus is that it's still the best TRS device for ice climbing.

What accidents do you know of from the lift and uAscend?

that guy named seb wrote:

There are few single points of failure in climbing that we need to know are bomber, when top rope soloing your device is one of them. 

Unless you have two devices. Which 99% of folks do.

Ricky Harline wrote:

What accidents do you know of from the lift and uAscend?

Also curios to hear reports of a Lift failing when used properly.  First time I've even heard a hint of them not working.

Mikey Schaefer wrote:

Also curios to hear reports of a Lift failing when used properly.  First time I've even heard a hint of them not working.

The accident was for a uAscend (link). I don't know of any for the Lift, and I should have made that clearer in my sentence. Apologies. I'd be far more likely to trust the CAMP than the Grandwall, even if CAMPs QC through the years hasn't always been perfect. And to be fair, back when I first got my Ushba in 2007 I remember folks talking about how you couldn't trust Russian gear. So YMMV. 

Anyone who has handled a Lift or uAscend vs an Ushba though will notice the difference in spring tension. But springs wear out, even Ushbas (only heard thirdhand from owners who've had them for decades). I haven't handled a Lift or uAscend in years and don't remember if they have the beveled notch in the camming bar. Anyone care to enlighten me if they do? I think that notch plays a big role in its ability to handle icy/muddy ropes, but then I'm no engineer.

Yes, the Lift has a groove/bevel in the camming bar.  And if you use the Lift enough that groove just gets deeper and eventually to the point where it becomes sharp. I've replaced multiple Lifts due to the problem.  I've never had a spring wear out or get soft.

And some really bad beta in the Squamishclimbing.com thread.  Never put another device on top of the Lift.  And it sounds like the standard was single device which is just crazy to me.  The only time I use a single device is when I'd feel comfortable free soloing a pitch and then I consider the rope grab device as a backup to my hands.  I use two devices probably over 95% of the time.

Mikey Schaefer wrote:

Yes, the Lift has a groove/bevel in the camming bar.  And if you use the Lift enough that groove just gets deeper and eventually to the point where it becomes sharp. I've replaced multiple Lifts due to the problem.  I've never had a spring wear out or get soft.

And some really bad beta in the Squamishclimbing.com thread.  Never put another device on top of the Lift.  And it sounds like the standard was single device which is just crazy to me.  The only time I use a single device is when I'd feel comfortable free soloing a pitch and then I consider the rope grab device as a backup to my hands.  I use two devices probably over 95% of the time.

Interesting. Hadn't heard about the groove on the Lift wearing out like that. My titanium Ushba has never had that problem despite being used for thousands of pitches.

And very bad beta. But then that was a decade ago now, when TRS was much less systematized. When I started TRSing nearly 20 years ago no one I knew used a backup device, only backup knots. And even those were foregone oftentimes.  

Ricky Harline wrote:

What accidents do you know of from the lift and uAscend?

Hi Ricky,  I can't find it now, but I remember seeing a post of yours claiming 1,000's of falls on a Camp Lift. I just bought one, because, I recently discovered that free soloing 5.6 at 66 is way fucking scarier than 5.9 at 39. (I imagine the 25 year layoff might have something to do with it) In fact, any V0 boulder problem taller than 10 feet is too high,  unless I AM comfortable soloing it. The body just doesn't land, even on my feet,  as softly as it used to. So tomorrow I am going out to try "TRS"ing. I will be using a Beal 10.5 unicore rope. Were I am going you start at the top, so I will anchor, rappel,  then climb up,  move the rope to a different route and repeat. I am not going to hang weight on the rope. I am expecting to have to feed the rope through the Lift for some distance. Think I have the set up figured out. 

Do you have any words of wisdom for me?